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Hello and welcome to the City Club of Cleveland, where we are devoted to creating conversations of consequence that help democracy thrive.

It's Friday, September 4th, and I'm Mark Ross, retired managing partner of PwC and president of the City Club Board of Directors.

Thank you all for joining us here at the City Club for this timely conversation.

Since the founding of Israel, Americans have been deeply invested in its future, and today it's almost an understatement to say that debates over Israel have become central to American politics.

Understanding the deep complexities of Israeli society is no longer simply a matter of foreign policy, but increasingly important to understand the world we live in on a daily basis.

Today, We will hear from 2 citizens of Israel, one Jewish and one Arab, about the future of Israel as a pluralistic democracy where both Jewish and Palestinian Israelis share communities and a future.

Today I'm pleased to introduce the people on the stage.

Mohammad Darawshe is Director of Strategy at the Center for Shared Society Givat Haviva.

Dr.

Jonatan Shimshoni, Retired Brigadier General, formerly of the Israeli Defense Forces, and Executive Member, Member of the Commanders for Israel's Security; and David Halperin, Moderator for today's conversation and CEO of the Israel Policy Forum.

They will discuss how Israel is changing, the path forward, and what lessons we can take away from the tensions in a pluralist democracy.

A reminder for our livestream and radio audiences, If you have a question during the Q&A, you can text it to 330-541-5794, and the City Club staff will try to work it into the program.

Now, members and friends of the City Club of Cleveland, please join me in welcoming our guests.

Well, thank you all for being part of this conversation, and I want to thank my— our panelists here today, and I want to jump right in.

Today's conversation, framed as Israel at a Crossroads: Charting the Path Within and Beyond, is a really unique opportunity to speak with Mohammad, who is really leading to create change within, between Israel's Jewish and the 21% of Palestinian Arab citizens of the State of Israel, whereas Yoni, working to chart a path forward beyond in the relationship between Israel and its Palestinian neighbors in the West Bank and Gaza, let alone the broader regional environment.

Mohammad, I want to start with you.

What has it been like in the evolution, both before October 7th, at October 7th, and to this day, the evolution in attitudes between Jews and Arabs, citizens within Israel?

Well, thank you very much for having me, and especially Jodi and Herb.

For bringing us here.

This is— it's a big question that you're asking.

The starting point is, what is the forming document of Jewish-Arab relations in Israel?

It is the Declaration of Independence that speaks about 2 types of equality: political equality and social equality.

This was the promise of the founding fathers of the State of Israel.

Fast forward, 19th of July, 2018, The government of Israel passes a law called the Nation-State Law.

And the Nation-State Law says Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people.

Well, where's my state?

It leaves 21% of Israel's population as out of the national interest, as if they're not legitimate citizens.

I like always to say, I did not immigrate to Israel, Israel immigrated to me.

And as such, I expect Israel to fulfill the promise of the Declaration of Independence, first of all, of political equality.

And political equality is absent.

And I think we are under this government in degradation status every single day.

They're trying to reduce the status of civic equality of Arab citizens before October 7th, on October 7th, and post-October 7th with practical actions of witch hunting and reducing the political rights of Arab citizens all the way even trying to lead to practices of preventing Arab citizens from even voting on the 27th of October, on Elections Day, to guarantee right-wing continued control in Israel.

On October 7th was a very significant factor because Arab citizens chose not to be part of the physical conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

Although the massive majority of Arab citizens support the struggle of the Palestinians for free, independent, Palestinian state free of occupation.

I stand behind that personally, and I think occupation is a shame not only for Israel but for everyone in this room and for the international community, that we have another day of occupation that we're going to experience tomorrow.

And I think that ultimately this has to end, one, to give the Palestinians their right for self-determination, and second, for Israel to start practicing being a normal state.

'Cause as long as that process continues, Israel cannot be a normal state.

7th of October didn't— history did not start on the 7th of October.

Israeli-Palestinian conflict did not start on the 7th of October.

The conflict is not because of the 7th of October.

The conflict is because there's no resolution for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

What I can testify for in Jewish-Arab relations in Israel, Jews and Arabs can and know how to live together.

We can do it as humans.

You know, if you defuse governments and allow us as human beings to live together, we know how to be doctors in the same shifts.

We know how to be drivers of buses in the same shifts.

We know how to be in the same production line, in the same factory, in the same shifts.

We know how to create personal friendships, how to attend each other's weddings and birthdays.

We know how to do that.

By the way, we have done this for thousands of years.

We've done this for thousands of years.

We can do that.

The problem right now is that political institutions are trying to prevent this from happening.

So bring us back specifically to October 7th and then the subsequent Gaza War.

In the aftermath of October of course, there were Arabs, including a family member of yours, who were killed on October 7th, and there was a moment that appeared to be growing Jewish-Arab solidarity that subsequently with the Gaza War seems to have dissipated.

Can you speak a bit about what that experience has been like over the past 3 years?

Well, the first 2, 3 months, most Arab citizens felt more, I would say, an Israelization-strengthened identity, empathizing and sympathizing with the Jewish people, the casualties that were killed on October 7th, and even understood the Israeli reaction for the first couple of months.

But definitely not beyond that, because it became a savage, aggressive war on the Palestinians for political reasons, to serve the interests of the current political leadership in Israel, and not necessarily to serve the state of Israel, and not to serve peace.

We ended up as a result of this, why, you know, clearly erasing the concept of political horizon for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Now, usually shakeups like October 7th, like the First Intifada and the Second Intifada, they're supposed to shake up everyone and say, now let's talk about the next phase.

The next phase should be resolving the conflict.

On the contrary, the current leadership in Israel is using this to even deepen the conflict and make it more and more complicated, up to the situation that No one now, I don't think, you know, who's talking about one-state solution?

Is it feasible?

Who's talking about two-state solution?

Is it feasible?

Three-state?

You know, I don't see a horizon on the political diplomatic agendas, definitely not under this leadership.

Arab citizens have realized that their role has to be constructive and not destructive during this tense time, which means not to engage in violent confrontations with the Israeli Jewish community, One, because this is the community with whom we want to live the day even after a peace agreement, if it comes, and even today.

As I said, we are in the same shopping centers, we are in the same community centers.

We need to make life functioning so that maybe the next generation will learn how to make a political solution.

Curre to create those islands of personal interactions social interactions, economic interactions, create that kind of interdependency as civilians.

Yoni, I want to turn to you because Mohammad just referenced what is feasible as a vision for the future of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

I wonder from your perspective, in the aftermath of October 7th, in the aftermath of the Gaza War, or the one that is perhaps continuing at a lower flame, What do you see as the vision that should be aspired to, and what are the current obstacles that you're focused on that need to be overcome if we're going to head into a more positive direction?

First of all, I echo the thanks to Herb and the hosts, Jodi.

I also fess up to having, having been at one point a PwC partner.

So, sorry about that.

The vision hasn't changed, and the reason it hasn't changed from a vision of 2 states is that coming from our perspective, which is completely focused, hard-headed security, national security, is that the only way we could achieve long-term security for the State of Israel is for the national aspirations of the Palestinians to be realized.

So that's in terms of vision.

In terms of what's feasible, we understand, and we spend a lot of time both thinking about it and researching and talking to lots of people.

Going now, going now, striving for a Palestinian state is the surest way to kill the idea.

Okay, so if you want to be on the path, you have to chart a very careful path in that direction.

And as we say in Israel, at the moment we want to be smart, not right.

Okay, and the way to be smart is to start a gradual process which we know there's a good chance of buy-in within Israeli politics, start a gradual process of enhancing the agency of the Palestinian Authority, of the entity, of creating an economic wherewithal, of reestablishing economic relations that have been basically cut off, reinstituting or releasing funds that Israel has withheld from the Palestinian Authority, that belong to the Palestinian Authority, most importantly, enabling control of contiguous territory in the West Bank for the Palestinian Authority.

We think these are the kinds of steps that could pass, could pass muster within Israeli politics, and would get us on a path of creating a mutual confidence and also confidence within the Palestinian community towards the Palestinian Authority, which we know now doesn't exist.

Just 3 weeks ago, one of the things that our organization does, we spend a lot of time in the West Bank.

And I was in a community that had been harassed by Israeli settlers.

And I asked one of the— well, I sat with one of the families.

And I said, well, what about— we asked about, has the police done anything to protect you?

No.

Has the army done anything to protect you?

No.

And I asked, how about the Palestinian Authority?

Do they have a role?

I mean, do you hear them?

Do you feel them?

Do they help?

And they, so on.

And the answer was, what Palestinian Authority?

They're nothing to us.

So you described a variety of steps that you mentioned are politically possible or politically a starting point.

They seem to be non-starters with the current Israeli government.

And of course, there's an election coming right around the corner next month, the election happening on October 27th.

What would be possible, and what would be the makeup of an alternative government that could actually pursue that agenda?

What could meaningfully change post-October 27th, and what remains Not yet in the offing.

Okay, a new government, let's say that the current opposition actually take, there's a transfer of, you call it in America, a transfer of power for some reason.

It's really a transfer of authority.

I don't know why power.

But anyway, the current opposition becomes the government.

The next day will be the biggest disappointment in Israeli history.

This is not a government that's going to say, okay, now we're in power, let's sit around the cabinet, the government table, and the first order of business is recognition of a Palestinian state or getting on a path to it.

That's not what's going to happen.

What will happen, I think, is we will see a government whose DNA is completely different than the current one.

It's a government that is, whose DNA is precisely in the Declaration of Independence that Mohammad addressed.

And if you, and we, I know all the leaders of the current opposition, and of course we hear their public statements.

They are deep into believing in restoring the liberal democratic ethos of the state, the institutions, the rule of law, the power of the court, the importance, you know, for the peace process, or for a process, the importance of the international community, the current government sort of either ignores or actually takes, absorbs energy from ignoring or taking on the international community.

This new government is likely to be one that sees Israel reintegrating into the international community, both in Europe and in the US, reachieving a relationship with bipartisan America, which Israel has lost, strengthening its, or restrengthening its ties with Jewish America, for example.

So it's a different mindset, which means that all the sources, both of internal leverage and discussion, but also the potential for external pressure, come back to the table.

So, all of this description assumes that an alternative government can be formed.

The October 27th election will be an election about the 120 seats in the Knesset.

The battle to form a government is a cobbling together of small parties to join together a 61-seat coalition government.

The current government, of which I think you both are fierce critics, has 64 seats, and in current polls, it is polling anywhere from as low as 47 seats to as high as 53.

And we're seeing largely a close, close to deadlock, if not a bit of advantage for the current opposition amongst Jewish Zionist parties, right, at roughly 50-50.

But when including Arab parties representing the sector, Mohammad, that you are coming from, that adds another 13, if as many as 16 seats, which would very clearly create that alternative coalition.

And so the question becomes, what is the potential for Jewish-Arab partnership in this next coalition that would ensure that the current government is replaced.

Mohammad, I want you to maybe tease out what do you see as the prospects for a united coalition that includes Arab parties in the next government?

Well, first of all, this is not the first time that there's a tie in the Jewish community.

It happened during the Rabin government.

Rabin had 59— Rabin had 56 seats, versus 59 seats of the right wing in Israel.

And he depended on 5 Arab members of the Knesset from the 2 Arab political parties represented then, Democratic Arab Party and Hadash.

And they gave him what was called the safety net agreement that carried Rabin's government for 4 years, which allowed the Oslo Agreement and the Oslo process to develop, but also it allowed what was referred to as the golden ages for Arab citizens, the golden period.

Of Jewish-Arab partnership in politics, but also in social economic issues.

It happened also in the previous government, the Bennett-Lapid government, which was dependent on— not completely dependent, but integrated the United Arab List in the coalition, not in the government, but in the coalition.

They didn't give them ministerial positions.

So it still was, I would say, second-rate political partnership.

I think what you have in the Arab community now is 2 approaches.

One approach, which is the United Arab List, says, all in.

If you want us, if the center-left in Israel want us, we want also ministerial positions.

We have no inferiority complex.

Political equality promised in the Declaration of Independence, put it on the table, Mr.

Eisenkot.So I think it's important, you just mentioned the United Arab List, but I wonder if you could just tease out, I think it's important to acknowledge that the Jewish vote parties represent quite a spectrum from liberal to conservative to religious, and there's a similar spectrum on the Arab side as well.

And I wonder if you could say a word about the United Arab List and who are the Arab parties that are vying for seats.

Well, there's the United Arab List and there's the Joint List.

These are 2 different groups.

The United Arab List is, I would call it, more pragmatic approach, has a significant portion of the Islamic movement, which split over the issue.

So the more radical Islamic movement does not even vote, and they call to boycott elections.

But the more pragmatic are the essence or the foundation of the United Arab List, plus a number of Arab mayors.

And by the way, they just announced the inclusion of Yoav Sigalovich, a Jewish guy who was the deputy chief of the police in Israel, as their number 2.So it's not anymore an Arab political, pure Arab political party, although 99% of their voters will be Arab.

But that shows you their pragmatist approach to say, we want to play the Israeli politics, and as such, number 2 is a significant mainstream Israeli Jewish figure.

The Joint List have a different perspective this time.

They used to say, we don't want to play the coalition politics, we only want to express anger and frustration on the podium in the Knesset.

This time they're saying, no, we might provide the safety net agreement for an alternative government to the Netanyahu government because this is definitely the worst government in history.

One, for the Arab citizens.

Second, for the Palestinians.

3, for Israelis.

4, for the Jewish people.

5, to the Middle East in general.

This is the worst government you can think of.

It is radical, messianic, Radical, messianic, zero-sum game type of people that see no value in the life of other people, not Palestinians and not even fellow Jews.

Yoni, what is this election about?

Well, I have to start by saying that as commanders for Israel's security, we don't take a position, a partisan position.

And we don't support or denigrate particular politicians.

We worry about policy, and of course it's political, but it's nonpartisan.

This election is about many things.

The main, I'd say the main divide is actually not on the Palestinian issue.

If you look at the main divide, that's running it, that's motivating behavior.

It is back to the questions that were raised by the constitutional revolution or the judicial reform, it had many different names, has to do with, are we going to go back or forward, but are we going to resume, as I said, the dictates of our DNA, which is a liberal democratic, secular, although Jewish, majority state?

Or are we going to go down this— down the rabbit hole, basically?

Are we going to continue on this path towards a theocratic, autocratic, messianic, and everything that goes with it, understanding everything that goes with it, being a pariah, That's sort of moving aside, sort of from the international, at least the Western international community, and going to be something else.

The issue that has ignited this, has made this explicitly part of the elections, is actually, you could say it's a particular, it's a very particular issue, but underneath it, You can find everything, and it's the issue of conscription of the Orthodox to the military.

And when you get into that, people understand, at least in their gut, that this is really a really enormous question, because it's about the social contract, equality, And it's those kinds of questions, of course, and observing that this government, in order to exempt the Orthodox, has launched a whole series of legislation and policy that is totally anti-democratic, definitely not liberal democratic.

So that's what this election has become about, in a sense.

I'm curious, as Israelis coming from different sectors within Israeli society, how you view the nature of the discourse about your country, your lives, within the United States.

What do you think is misunderstood or is missing from the American discourse as you've seen it that you think this audience needs to hear?

Well, I met 3 years ago with President Biden, And it was after him making one of the statements saying Israel is the state of the Jewish people.

And I said, I beg your pardon, is America only the state of the WASPs?

How would you say— how would you characterize such a statement?

And he said, no, America is the state of all Americans.

And I said, Israel should be the state of all Israelis and not just the state of the Jews.

I think many people, when they think about Israel, they think in a very narrow sight.

They only see the 79% Jewish population.

Some even see even shorter, like the Haredi see the Haredi part only.

The national religious see the national religious part only.

But if you— and I think that what is needed in America is for people to see the 100%.So the 100% is that Israel has at least another 21%, forgetting 2 million citizens who are Arab citizens that need to be treated as equals politically, not just socially, economically.

I don't want just to have equal meal or similar meal to what Yoni has.

I want my political leaders to sit in government and to also be part of the decision-making.

That's political equality.

Not just to vote in the Knesset so you can express anger and frustration, but be able to decide budget goes to this school or goes to that community center.

That is what's missing in America.

They think about Arab citizens as if they are a side issue.

That's not a side issue.

That is the question about whose state is it.

Israel is also the state of its citizens and not just the state of the Jewish people.

Great.

Yoni, I want you to address the same question, but I do want to just get the audience ready for questions of your own, which we'll take in just a moment.

Yoni.

I don't— I can't pinpoint something in the discourse that's missing, but there is something that's missing in the understanding, I think, of the tremendous unused agency that the US has in Israel.

Both the American political leadership, American Jewish leadership, American civic leadership, the agency that you actually have is like 10 degrees higher than the agency that you apply.

And this is going back to President Biden, Knew what had to happen, didn't apply the agency, basically begged Netanyahu, Netanyahu said no, and that was sort of the end of the conversation.

Big mistake, a big price that we pay in terms of our concerns, which is national security concerns, 'cause it allowed us to pursue, allowed Israel to pursue counterproductive paths and action, which were also very detrimental to the United States and American interests, which is too bad.

President Trump, I think, understands the agency that the White House has, and without that, the big agreement of last October and the hostage release and so on would not have happened.

It just wouldn't have come to happen.

Since then, for reasons that we don't understand, although our team communicates with President Trump's team, we don't quite understand why that— there's been a backslide on that understanding, or not understanding, but applying the agency.

One can imagine that there's this little sideshow called Iran and other things happening that may deflect attention, but you're not just a superpower, you're the superpower.

You should be able to deal with With more than one issue.

Wonderful.

We are about to begin the audience Q&A.

For those just joining via our livestream and radio audience, I'm Mark Ross, President of the City Club Board of Directors.

Today's conversation is about the future of Israel and its path forward.

Forward.

To help us explore the questions, we are joined by Mohammad Darawshe, the Director of Strategy at the Center for Shared Society Givat Haviva; Dr.

Yoni Shimshoni, retired Brigadier General, formerly of the Israel Defense Forces and Executive Member of the Commanders for Israel's Security; and David Halperin, Moderator for today's conversation and CEO of the Israel Policy Forum.

We welcome questions from everyone— City Club members, guests, and those joining via our livestream at cityclub.org or live radio broadcast at 89.7 WKSU IdeaStream Public Media.

If you'd like to text a question for our speakers, please text it to 330-541-5794, and the City Club staff will try to work it into the program.

A reminder to keep the question short and to the point and actually make it a question so we can get to as many as possible.

May we have the first question, please?

Okay, go.

Hello, good morning.

Thank you for having me.

My question is, since Israel has the right to exist and defend itself, as a Palestinian, my home in West Bank of Ramallah has been occupied since 1967.

Do I have the right to exist and defend myself and my home, my crops, including my olive trees that are thousands and thousands of years old?

If the answer is yes, how can I do that?

Thank you.

Thank you.

Want to start?

Yeah, but the straight immediate answer is, of course, you do.

OK.

And there's no argument, at least not on— I don't think there's an argument here that you do.

As I said earlier, the question is, how do we get to that point where that happens?

In the short term, and that's part of the main effort that we as commanders are doing right now, and in fact, I keep getting texts from my friends who are on the ground while I'm in Cleveland, they're on the ground in the West Bank, is to force, well, we can't force, but to encourage and get to a point where the current sovereign in the West Bank, who is the commander of the Central Command of the IDF, who's the current sovereign in the West Bank, where he— I'm sorry, but it's a he— acts unequivocally to protect and defend your rights until we can get on a path to a different future.

So— I would add a couple of more sentences.

You do not need anyone to tell you you have the right.

You don't need anyone to confirm that your freedom is sacred.

You don't need anyone to say that I agree that Palestinians deserve freedom.

That is a born right that you carry because you are who you are.

You are a free spirit, free Palestinian that belongs to that land.

And every single second of occupation is a shame on humanity first and a crime by the aggressors who are exercising occupation.

I think the question that is within that question is the Palestinian national movement has pursued diplomacy and it has pursued violence.

And the question is, what is the path that would actually be effective in ensuring an end of occupation that you would describe?

I think that's the question that's within the question, Yoni, which is, what is the answer to demonstrate that violence is not necessarily the path to demonstrate real progress, but there actually is an opportunity that political avenues can produce, which I think we have seen time and time again, those political avenues end in failure.

What needs to change to demonstrate that political paths forward and not violence is actually the more sustainable path forward.

So in, in the events of October 7th and in the following 3 years of horrific, horrific events, there is a silver lining.

And the silver lining is And this relates, echoes something that Mohammad said along the way.

But the silver lining is that you got to look over the cliff into the abyss.

And that changes you.

And it has changed the understanding, for example, among Israelis, And you can poll Israelis and they'll tell you no to a Palestinian state.

But if you ask them, is the current way of doing business, is that sustainable?

They'll say no.

A large majority will say no.

If you ask them, is diplomacy, is a diplomatic political way forward imperative?

They will say yes, a large majority.

Do they know exactly what they mean by all that?

No.You can see very basic changes in the understanding just of how the world works, and what they're up against, or what we're up against.

I think the same thing has happened on the other side.

I think Hamas, in October and since, went— took the conflict to a place where their way of doing business, I think, has lost credence, has lost its place.

But both of those changes have to be nurtured, and they have to be nourished.

Otherwise, like any physical system, it'll come back to, it'll come back to the origin.

And it is incumbent, it is incumbent upon the more powerful controlling power, the one with preponderant force, to start moving the system forward and to start endowing the system with some mutual confidence and so on and so forth.

So it is incumbent upon the Israelis to start taking the first steps.

Mohammad, I want to see if you could address that same question, which is the background of a political path that has proven consistently to be stuck, but a violent path that has proved to have truly devastating human consequences and put us, frankly, reversed the clock to much further back than we've, we've been in many years.

How do you navigate the path forward, and what is the attitude of Israel's Arab citizens on these issues?

Well, I believe in nonviolence.

And I think that trying to speak to people's minds and hearts is better than trying to cut their flesh.

Yeah.I think it's more convincin But when you eliminate diplomatic political solutions, you're actually seeding the next intifada, the next violence to erupt.

The ones to blame about October 7th are not just Hamas, but those that eliminated a Palestinian political horizon.

And today we do not have a political Palestinian horizon.

And who's preventing that?

I guess if we ask people here, you probably know who to blame.

Usually it's the, the party with the power.

That has to come with political solutions.

They have to offer something.

No one is offering anything today.

Not the US, not the UN, not the EU, not Israel.

And I can promise you this will result in another cycle of violence, maybe not this year, 5 years, 10 years down the road.

If not Hamas, it will be another group that will say, we need freedom, we need liberation.

The lady there asked about freedom.

It is going to happen.

It's going to happen.

Better diplomatically.

I subscribe to it, as I said, nonviolently.

But if our way fails, someone will fill the void.

And it will be the violent groups that will say, okay, let's shake up the system, this time with another cycle of violence.

Former Cleveland Rabbi Zachary Truboff has written a very powerful book called Zionism in Crisis.

And in that book, he calls for teshuvah, that Israel must show this to the Palestinian people.

And recently he's been writing about the violence on the West Bank as well.

And I want to ask you, what role— this is not what he calls for, but what role do you think reparations can play as part of that, over and above whatever borders and land swaps and things like that there are.

What role might reparations play in achieving the original goals of the Declaration of Independence?

Thank you.

There's a lot of historical evidence that the So financial pressure and either pressure or the opposite of financial pressure, or financial enhancement, actually moves people ideologically one way or another, gets them to stop fighting or to start fighting.

There's not much evidence that that happens.

We like to think it is, especially when we come from capitalist societies.

Western capitalist countries, we think that that would do it.

As I said, there may be room for reparations.

It may help smooth the path forward.

We need to get on the path first.

I would add that first things come first.

Okay?

Let's agree on— and actually, I don't think anyone can outsmart logic.

The logic that we have learned from my 63 years of life watching and engaging in, in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, that the working solution, maybe not the best solution, is the two-state solution, give or take around 97% of the West Bank with maybe 3% land swap to accommodate things on the ground.

With Jerusalem issue and refugees, these are the 3 main topics, okay?

I would think any 6th grader knows how to give you proper solution.

It doesn't need really much intellect.

I think it's an over-negotiated conflict.

It's a conflict that we've negotiated over and over and over and over again, and we come back to square one, that if a Palestinian and when a Palestinian state is to be established, it will be more or less around the Green Line, 1967 borders.

Now, once we have that package together, then we can bring a lot of other issues.

I think that what we need to guarantee in the process are 2 main things.

One, how to guarantee for the Palestinians freedom, dignity, and pride, and for Israelis safety, security, and welcome in the Middle East.

Okay?

Once we fix those things, everything, believe me, everything will come together.

Whether it is financial arrangements or technically land swaps or, you know, do I allow access for the rabbits beneath the separating wall if we need the separating wall for 1 or 2 or 10 generations?

Let's fix the most important things first.

The political diplomatic framework in which we need to move to the next stage afterwards.

I might just add that I think there is a— it's important to note, and I think is on display here, that there is no such thing as a Palestinian position.

There's no such thing as a Jewish-Israeli position.

There is a wide range of views in both societies when it comes to these kinds of questions.

And if we're in the search for who is the maximum victim, then I think we are going to have a longstanding challenge in coming to any agreement because I think there are many Israelis who would argue, do they also have reparations from Arab countries in which they were kicked out of at the creation of the State of Israel?

Are there reparations for those who are victims of terrorist attacks?

Are there reparations indeed for Palestinians who have been displaced from their homes in these very moments.

These are challenging issues, but I think that if we're going to focus on the idea of human dignity and prosperity and freedom going forward, it's critically important to understand the history and what has taken place.

But the fight over who is the victim, it seems, is why we're in this stuck period to begin with.

But please, let's have another question.

Reverend Stephen Blonder Adams, senior pastor here at the First Presbyterian Old Stone Church.

And you mentioned about our agency as Americans, and I would ask you each, how do we reclaim our agency as Americans when Christian and Jewish Zionists have stolen the narrative?

And for many of us, just to criticize the Israeli government is thrown back at us as you're antisemitic.

And that has poisoned the whole narrative, and I think weakened the ability for any of us to advocate for all Israelis, for the Palestinian, for the Jewish, for the Christian.

And so I ask you, how do we empower this nation and we ourselves that are gathered here to reclaim that narrative and to truly support all people of Israel?

That's for you, actually.

I mean, I will start by saying you're not expecting me to answer that.

I don't want to get deported.

Second, I think that you have a date coming in November?

So get your act together.

110% turnout of rational voices in the ballots, and I think that's a democratic game.

Show up and make people that— make sure that people that think like you show up to the ballots.

I think majority of people are rational, and if you are able to reach them and not just to talk at them, but get to them.

Knock on doors, pick up the phone, send emails, send the WhatsApp message.

Get everyone that is potentially able to make an impact to show up, which is the same thing I'm doing for the 27th of October in the Arab community.

We want Netanyahu and his gang out of office.

Turnout of Arab citizens, the highest rate of turnout will guarantee that there will be an option.

Maybe we will not get the proper government, or maybe not the best government afterwards, but at least we will be not— we will not have the worst government.

So first of all, just to echo something David said, if we get into this kind of competition, we won't get anywhere.

As we used to say, I grew up in a rough neighborhood in Israel, And so we were fighting all the time, and an adult would always eventually come and bash heads.

And then one of us would always say, end up saying, it all started when he hit me back.

In terms of what do we, I mean, I absolutely agree with Mohammad's agreement— encouragement to get out and vote the way you think.

But I think America is also largely motivated and operated, actually, in its operating system, you have an amazing civic society that is parallel to whatever political system influences the political system, but it's also parallel to the political system.

It has, you know, Vietnam, civil rights, that wasn't done by government, it wasn't done by elected government, that was done by people, civic society, churches, civil groups, and so on and so forth.

And I would encourage, despite the blowback, 'cause it's easy for me to say, in 2 hours I fly back, So, but I would encourage, especially since we are in such a moment, things in the Middle East are going to turn a corner one way or the other, and very fast.

And it could be, we could find ourselves falling into the boiling oil, as they say, or getting on some kind of path to something better.

And so I would encourage you to speak up despite the blowback.

So this question of agency leads me to really want to ask you, Mohammad, about Palestinian agency, because we're talking about the opportunity to go to the ballot box and vote your values, vote your conscience, whether it's here in the United States or in Israel on October 27th.

But Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza have not had a chance to meaningfully vote for leaders, In the Palestinian Authority today, you have a 90-year-old aging leader that's largely running an authoritarian, corrupt-type regime.

What do you think the Palestinians could be doing, irrespective and recognizing the control that Israel has over so much of what is possible?

What can Palestinians actually do to change their current approach?

Or strategy to be more effective at advancing the cause, specifically talking about the Palestinian Authority and the state of Palestinian politics today?

Well, first of all, to have elections.

You know, I do wish President Mahmoud Abbas long life in retirement.

I think it's time for him to allow the next generation of Palestinian leadership that is more in touch with reality to emerge.

We have some Palestinian leaders that can bring— can act as a magnet for the majority of the Palestinians.

One of them, Marwan Barghouti, is in Israeli jail.

And I think one of the things that Palestinians can demand is immediate release of Marwan Barghouti as the next Nelson Mandela of the Palestinians.

Deeply controversial in Israel as someone who's in jail for orchestrating suicide bombing attacks.

That's a claim.

That's a political court against him.

It was, you know, also for Nelson Mandela, he was claimed of certain— he was put in jail not necessarily for things that he did, but framed for things that were tailored around him.

And I think that's the case with Marwan Barghouti.

It was mostly a tailored case against him and not actual crimes that he committed.

So yes, for the Palestinians, they need to come step forward with the courage to change leadership, as I'm expecting Israelis to have the courage to change leadership.

But I also expect from Israel and the international community to allow the leadership of the Palestinians to have the freedom to also compete for getting elected and leading the Palestinian people, as some of the Palestinians in jail for political reasons.

Could you move up to the mic?

Just interested, over the past few years, there's been a dramatic drop of support for Israel in America and the international community.

Are Israelis aware of that?

Do they know why, and how much do they care about it?

I have to preface the answer by saying, and just echoing something that David said earlier, there's no such thing as the Israelis.

Just think about American society and how atomized it is.

Israeli society, It's similarly, it's even worse, 'cause it's a, it's more atomized among a smaller number of people.

So, so it's hard to ask how Israelis are reacting or thinking about this.

But I will say a couple of things about that.

One is the current, coalition, as it approaches its elections, has gone from, this is a bad thing, to, well, it's a fact, so let's turn it into a good thing for us politically.

So they are making the argument, well, the world's against us, the world's always been against us, and is giving us a hard time and telling us what to do and treading on our sovereignty.

And indeed, only we can push the world away and maintain our sovereignty.

So that's that kind of reaction.

Let's call it the other side, to the extent that there are 2 sides here.

The other side sees this moving away of the world from support of Israel as a calamity.

This is— Israel has always, needed an alliance system to survive, just from a national security perspective, has needed an alliance system and international support.

And by the way, if you look at the historical trajectory, under Ben-Gurion, that was like the most important input to national security.

And he created Israeli foreign assistance, a country that had no money whatsoever, created a whole system of Israeli foreign assistance, all over the world, Africa and South America and Southeast Asia, because we needed that kind of support.

And over years, that vision has gone and become narrower to the point where now Israel has sort of turned its back, or turned its back, or dissociated from its most important allies.

And again, just from a national security perspective, it has, Lost European support for the most part.

It has lost bipartisan American support for the most part, bipartisan support, because that was the big American ally, not a particular president or White House or House in Congress and so on.

It was the bipartisan support, and it lost that.

And it has lost much of the young generation in America, including the young Jewish generation.

If you talk to the leaders of the current opposition, they will— I was just reading something that Eisenkot, who's a possible next prime minister, for him that's like policy issue number one to deal with, is regaining Israel's position in the world, mostly in Europe and in the US.

Well, actually, I think because we're nearing an end, I would suggest a question that I'll ask myself and answer is, what do we do tomorrow?

My answer is, I don't know about the big politics.

I know that tomorrow— not tomorrow, tomorrow is Saturday, but Sunday, it's a workday for my team.

We're starting interviews of Jewish and Arab artists that are going to attend a program in our organization, our campus.

And we'll be selecting 6 fresh graduates from Arab schools, Arab art schools, and 6 Jewish artists.

Together they will be 12 and they will be in a joint residency sitting in a room this big.

Each will have their corner to produce their first portfolio, and at the end of 3 and a half months, produce a joint exhibition.

This is the way we're trying to influence the art industry so that it will create more interdependency, more cooperation.

We're doing this also in hospitals.

We're doing this in, in high-tech companies where we feel that building interdependency on the people-to-people level is the future of peace.

On the political issues, we can continue this discussion for another semester.

Thank you so much to Mohammad Darawshe, Dr.

Shimshoni, David Halperin for joining us at the City Club.

I'm Mark Ross, and this forum is now adjourned.

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