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Good afternoon and welcome to the City Club of Cleveland, where we are devoted to conversations of consequence that help democracy thrive.

It's Friday, February 13th, and I'm Cynthia Connelly, director of programing here at the City Club.

It is my privilege to be here to introduce today's forum, which is the Colleen Shaughnessy Memorial Forum and part of the City Club's Health Equity and Authors in Conversation series.

On September 15th, 1963, a bombing carried out by members of the Ku Klux Klan at the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, Alabama instantly killed Addie Mae Collins, Carol Denise McNair, Carol Rosamond Robinson, and Cynthia Dionne.

Maurice Wesley.

It was one of the most heinous tragedies of the civil rights movement, and served as a pivotal moment and moral Wake-Up call that changed the conversation on segregation and racism.

Today, we are honored to be joined on stage by two women whose lives and families carry the weight of that history.

Sara Collins Rudolph was the sole survivor, the fifth little girl in the room, and was just 12 years old at the time of the bombing.

She survived the blast and valiantly tried to rescue her little sister, Addie Mae, but was blinded by shattered glass.

Sarah Story lives on in her latest memoir, The Fifth Little Girl.

Sole survivor of the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing, The Sara Collins Rudolph Story.

Also here with us today is Lisa McNair, who was born one year after her sister Denise was murdered in the bombings.

Her book, Dear Denise, is a collection of 40 letters from Lisa addressed to the sister she never got to know, but in whose shadow of sacrifice and lost youth she was raised.

Both accounts by each of these women offer an intimate look into the lives of the silver Lot into their lives, and the civil rights movement and the power of remembrance, courage and most importantly, love.

Moderate in the conversation today is Reverend Larry Macon, junior senior pastor and bishop of Mount Zion, Oakwood Village, a recognized leader in education and public service.

Bishop macon serves on the board at Kent State University and currently serves on the office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives board for the State of Ohio, appointed under the governor's leadership.

He is also the author of four books and a former co-host of NBC affiliate WKYC's Live on Lakeside.

Before we begin, a quick reminder for our live stream and radio audience.

If you have a question during the Q&A portion of the forum, you can text it to 3305415415794, and city club staff will try to work it into the program.

Now members and friends of the City Club of Cleveland, please join me with a warm welcome for Lisa McNair, Sarah Collins, Rudolph, and Pastor Larry Larry Mason, junior.

I want to thank you all for being here today and of course, supporting these wonderful women and heroes.

I'd like to call both of you, and I'm thankful again, to have the privilege to just have a conversation with you.

Because I believe today we're not just discussing history, but we're hearing from women whose lives are a part of it.

Their stories are not just about tragedy, but about courage, faith, survival, and the long road to justice.

So I want to speak with both of you and just ask a question of both of you.

And we can actually start with Sarah and then Lisa.

But when people read about the Birmingham church bombing and the history books, it can feel quite distant because it was such a long time ago.

But for you, it was personal.

What is something you wish people understood about that day?

Beyond the headlines?

Well, for one thing, about that day, you know, we didn't, we weren't looking for a bomb to go off at church.

As children, we were going to have a youth day program on a day out.

Heard about many, bomb that was going off.

And in Birmingham, Alabama.

But at the age of 12, you know, it wasn't something that I just really got into me in a way.

Like, I said, we was going to have a youth day program, and we were so excited because we were going to participate in the program, and we were glad and, you know, getting ready for for the, youth program, because we was going to sing in the choir for but all said, well, the bomb went off and we didn't get a chance to really do it.

You know, you would.

Thank you.

You are safe.

And church is one place you were.

Thank you are safe.

But on that day, we weren't safe at all.

So, by bomb.

Bomb.

And it it did a lot to the spirit of the people that was there because they there's one day, we won't ever forget quite a day you won't ever forget.

And, Lisa, what would you say to that also?

Well, thank you all for having me here.

City club and for each of you all for coming today.

That this is our shared American history.

And this history has to be shared, has to be told, has to not be forgotten.

Particularly in a time when so many people in the in power want to put us back in that place.

And if you don't think that they do, you are wrong.

But you have to know your history and know what it looks like in order to see what is happening.

So young people, we should teach our children, our grandchildren, take them on civil rights tours, teach the civil rights history stories like ours to the students, but not just what happened, but why it happened so that we as adults and as children will know that this was divisive.

It was set to be divisive, to separate people, to not unify as Americans.

But remember that we are the United States of America, not just the states, but the individual people in them.

So these stories are important for all of us to know and to keep going on so that we can do better as Americans.

I like that.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Sarah, I'd like to ask you a question.

How did that moment shape your childhood and your understanding of the world?

Like you said, you were just coming there for for church, for Sunday school.

Once that moment happened, and we'll talk about all that you've had to go through since then.

But once that moment happened, how did it shape your childhood?

Well, you know, it was something that I was thrust into.

You know, I would look at, first of all, but doing my lifetime, it gave me a, it gave me fear.

I am very, nervous condition afterwards.

You know, doing that, doing that, 60 today.

We didn't get any counseling.

You know, what we went through with, you know, we went back to school, and I had to go back to school in a very nervous condition.

And, teacher, you know, the tune was good, but there were some new teachers.

They didn't treat me right because, you know, a child going through a bomb.

And at the age of 12, it just changed your whole life.

You know, I'm just, not out in life.

And, it changed my life so much until I was, Like I say, I was nervous, I was fearful, and every time I would hear a loud sound, I would jump, you know, because the bomb and it was so loud, it was on out on the now sad, rumble.

But it should.

The church on the South.

The reason I say that, because I my husband, he said that when a bomb went off, it shook their church.

It would only say I was that.

Well, people just didn't know, you know, they they they just looked at it like.

And though the bomb just saying boom.

But their bomb blew and they shook me.

They shook my body, you know, and I had to go through this until I was in my 42.

I got, prayer from a preacher.

And, when I prayer that really changed me.

And I was out, I was able to get out and tell this to because.

So many people didn't even know there were five.

Do they always say, oh, but, you know, at that time, I wasn't able to talk about it because of the, condition that I was in, but, at the, God healing, I mean, begin to come out and talk about.

And there you have been healed.

You've suffered a very tragic incident.

You, to this day, have received no restitution.

To this day, no one pays for your bills.

No one, takes care of your medical or anything else.

But there was a moment, as you mentioned, maybe in your 40s, or maybe when you receive that prayer where your pain became purpose.

Can you share with us?

At what moment did that pain turn into purpose?

Well, you know, I went to church at night, and I wanted to go because I heard about this prophet who was prophesying.

My sister was telling me about it.

But, when I got to church that night, he was talking about getting baptized with the Holy Ghost.

And I said to myself, well, I tried everything, you know, so I made a real try.

Jesus.

So, so at the prayer, when he when he passed the tear to me on my head and I just, you know, for the flow.

But when I got up, I was walking in and newness of life.

I got my life changed.

God changed me.

And, I began to be renewed.

Devotion leader church.

And I got on the earthly board.

You know, I was scared to do all these things at first, but I knew God hated me, and I began to go around and tell my story because the condition I was then, I wasn't able to even talk about that day until he got to me.

But you know, it.

Lisa, of course, one of your sisters was one of the four that had to endure all that, that tragedy and that tragic death.

Tell us how your family made it through that rough moment.

What did your family do to make it through?

Well, their faith in Christ really was how they got through.

And with the city of Birmingham, if that that movement was that moment kind of shook people awake.

People who had been silent and let the evil happen, began to speak out, began to care, because, you know, it's the Bible Belt.

So everybody can relate to taking your children to church and dressing them up.

But nobody can be prepared to go see them in the morgue.

You know, a piece of concrete crust in that floor head or some people.

Some of the girl's bodies were unrecognizable.

People don't say that very much.

But yet I think it's important to mention that it just didn't get hit with the bomb pass out, and that this was a very tragic thing that fam, for families had to come and identify their children in a terrible way that they should never have had to do.

But Mom and dad, believed in God, and God held them together.

Their churches held them together.

The people of Birmingham held them together, and they chose love over hate, which also helped them to move forward.

And today we know Denise is in a better place.

Yes, but what we do need to know is more about her, because she's not just a picture in a frame.

She is.

She's someone special.

Tell us a little bit about Denise and what you would like people to know about her.

She was great.

And that's my favorite picture that's coming up.

I, you know, because I was born a year after she was killed, almost exactly from the day she was murdered.

I was born, and they've been trying to have kids for the whole 11 years.

She was alive, but my mother could never carry the term.

And so they would tell us stories about her.

But the ones that I love the most are of how she fought for other children, how there was, some kids in the neighborhood who had less than some of the other kids, and one of the little girls wanted to be in the little social club.

And then some of the neighbors didn't want her to be in it because they said, well, she didn't have the money to pay that nickel dues every month.

And, you know, they just didn't like the way she dressed.

And but Denise was like.

Martha is going to be in the club because I said she's going to be in the club.

And they were like, no.

And they were like, well, there's mom, I can pay her dues.

If she can't fail and say, if that's not good enough then I'm not going to be in the club either.

So it must have been something to have Denise Magnay in your club, because everybody agreed that Martha could be in the club.

But I just love how she, that she had a presence of her of right and wrong an early age.

And she was willing to stand up for it.

So that's my favorite story about her, I love that.

So I want to ask you a little bit about justice.

You know, justice in this case took many decades and even to some extent hasn't totally been, served.

But what was it like to live so many years without accountability for those that were responsible for what happened?

Well, it was it was so sad, you know, because, they enjoy their life, you know, every time they hear his, his cry out in 1977.

But it's a 13 year from, Barbara Frank Terry and Tom Blanton, 39 years.

And there were just too long, you know, we waited and waited, but, I had to go and witness on all of the man's trial.

And, when I would see them in the court.

Oh, I would I was still angry, you know, because what they did, you know, because those good.

They shouldn't have been killed that way, you know, because it was only because of, hey, you know, and and because they want to integrate the schools and they try to stop it.

Bam, bam.

And it took I like I was still in telling the, young people a few minutes ago, you want to just keep things segregated.

And, they're living in Birmingham and just thinking about that all the time.

I was really amazed and actually.

And now it was showing on my face, you know, how your face.

We were up and beat and you did the math.

Yeah.

And I went.

I went through life a long time with the look on my face, and I didn't know I was looking like that until somebody I went into the same store at the time and they would ask me, what's wrong with you?

And I say, I just look like this.

Because I would just anger.

And then, you know, I just thank God they did.

I really forgave these guys for what they did.

And, y'all put it in my heart, you know, to forgive them because I got tired of looking like they every bit people asking me how come I was looking that way and I didn't know it, you know?

But anyway, when I forgave, I started looking better, you know?

You.

Lisa, how did you feel when those that were responsible were brought to justice?

Oh, wow.

That day was just phenomenal.

I just can't even tell you the surreal ness of it.

So I was a little kid in 77 when Chambliss was brought to justice, and I wanted to go to the trial where my dad wouldn't let me go.

He wouldn't let me go.

Let mama go.

And then bang!

2001 and 2002 was one of the last killers were brought to justice.

And I attended, some of one of the trial, but all of the last trial and it was just the whole trial was surreal how the prosecution defended him, but then how the, prosecution, you know, tried to tell us all the parts of what what they had done and how they had done it.

And, but as a black person in this country, and your first memory is knowing that your sister was killed by white people because they didn't like you, because of the color of your skin, you almost have way in the back of your mind.

Really don't expect justice to happen.

And so when it came and they did say the guy was guilty, the judge had admonished us, don't scream, don't make any noise.

And in my man, I was like, And so when it happened, I just boo cried.

This all that release just came out of me.

All that, you know, God finally heard our prayer.

You know, he finally listened to us.

This country sees us no more than just somebody, the N-word.

They see this as an American citizen who deserves justice.

So I was just so full to overflowing.

But what was beautiful for me was after I kind of caught myself and stopped crying, I looked up to see the prosecutors, Doug Jones and their team.

They were all men and they were weeping.

Wow.

Weeping and that meant so much to me that it meant as much to them as it meant to our families.

And I will never forget that.

And I was going to say, Lisa, of course, that's an unforgettable moment because you saw a semblance of justice.

So knowing that you're an advocate for justice at this point because of this tragedy, what would you say justice means for you for today?

It's a relates to Denise.

Yes.

For, Okay.

I kind of tend to be on field, so, you know, for us to get it right.

Yeah.

For us to get it right as Americans, all of us or whatever, call you.

Now y'all know what's going on, right?

Not right now.

Right.

And you need to voted in vote.

People do not talk and look for a unity out and bring us back together.

That's what justice would look like for me, right?

Because I grew up in my Denise grew up in a segregated America, but I grew up in, integrated America.

And my parents did that on purpose.

So I white friends, Indian friends, gay friends, Hispanic friends, people of poor people have any money.

People have too much money.

I have you, you can't to a party or a cookout at my house.

You're going to see everybody and everything and you're going to see most is a whole lot of love.

I would not want this life with all those people feeding into me that love.

And now the people are trying to separate that, that that's not good.

Everything about that is good.

And I'm not going back and I don't want to go back even.

So that's what justice is for me.

Thank you Lisa.

Sarah, when you look at the world today, what concerns you and what gives you hope, though?

Yeah.

Where concern me.

Really want one thing is our president.

I wish he were there.

You know, because he is a person of hate.

And I'm so concerned about how he got in office.

Because when you hear the words that come out of his mouth, the things that he said he cannot borrow, I may say, the, wrong talking just means talking in their rooms in our lives.

But, you know, they say they they don't talk like they, you know, talking about women's and stuff.

They don't talk like that.

And I just we wanted to myself, why would they vote for a man like that?

You.

Because.

Because of person.

They talk like that.

Why would you vote for.

And, they're really concerned.

We are a lot.

And I look at the thing and right now what he's doing, you know, so many people have lost their jobs.

So many people have lost their, their, Medicare and, and and just really when he got up there, he, he let it there was out space.

And when he went up there and I had no when he had those people there, going into the Capitol building, he let the devil out.

And why would you let the devil out?

And, you know, they gotta be doing the thing that they did.

So I really believe today those, people that are out there, like the ice people, I really believe they are the one with these.

Know mass it's own, and they run around doing things to hurt people.

Kill people.

Why would you why would you want to have people out there doing the thing like that?

So, he got real quick, too.

He got those people real quick.

So they had to be the one that was.

They went in there to the Capitol building right now.

That was before that was that was too fast, you know, because when you are too someone, to, do the thing that the ice people are doing and you had to know them because there was two men out there.

So, like I say, they are the one that went into the Capitol building and, and, broke the windows, went in there and did all the stuff that they did.

They say when they went into the Capitol building, it was a mess.

They may say now to, hey, hey, did everything you know it, what it would do when they went in there, they so don't those people are now, killing.

They are sending people across the country that had already, you know, been raised here and born here.

And.

But they look like the people, just like they're proud that.

And I don't know why, but, I just don't understand it, you know, so that they're really concern me.

He need to be impeached.

And I. I know, yeah, I I'm just being honest.

You don't need to be up.

Yeah.

Because he, he said if you go make America make America great again.

But what have we done.

Great.

Yeah.

So I that's what I'm that's what I'm looking at.

He hasn't done anything yet.

Great.

Yeah.

So I'm still waiting on to see the greatness amongst us amongst those concerns.

Of course.

What what gives you hope?

Well, one thing that give me hope.

I wish somebody else was in our office.

That's one thing they say.

I have.

We need somebody in office.

They care about the people because you don't care, you know, and especially about the blacks.

And you know, most of the I'm not trying to say that, but I really believe the white people, they put him up there because he had them thinking that the black people was going to go in and, on the farms and he was going to pick the fruits in our life.

So, they lost their farm.

I thought he was going to do that, but we weren't going to do it.

We we did the card.

We did the card.

Round did it.

We can go do that.

I'm gonna go pick the fruits to, you know, I ain't gonna do it.

So, And they lost their farm, and now they know how they are farm now, because we were going to.

Lisa, tell me this.

Yeah.

Tell me, Lisa, what would you want to say to the next generation about what you've been through, what you've seen, but also what you want to see them do?

Don't forget, learn your history.

And I spoke to the young people here, you know.

I'm not a big fan of president, either, but what I think has happened.

Sometime you need a bad thing to happen for you to wake up.

And we all need to be woke real hard.

Like all three cups of coffee.

Woke right now.

And the young people need to know because there's a little bit of, even with the adults, it's, false security, you know, they they signed two mono 2 million mobiles, 2 or 3 mobiles, and it's a wrap.

You know, we're not going to have rights.

We're not going to have citizenship.

We're not going to be able to do anything.

We're not going to be able to vote.

And it's going to be a wrap.

And it will take decades to correct that.

So the young people have to know the history.

They have to know what happened.

They have to know how the civil rights movement fought Ninevah silently and peacefully, how their strategic plan.

Go look it up.

Go.

I was telling the young kids today and no great young woman in Birmingham and she's really fighting the fight.

She's 25 years old, but I have the recordings of the bombing and all that stuff and that history.

We're playing it playing in my mind.

What is the recording this replaying in the back of your head?

And, the, what's the thing?

PBS eyes on the Prize.

That's original series and learning all of that history that plays the back of my mind, the roots, the series roots that had learning that history.

But a 25 year old girl I know in Birmingham doesn't have that.

So she went and looked at all of that.

She watched all of it and was so moved and was moved.

Her mouse was how strategic they were to plan, how they fought nonviolently and intelligently and peacefully.

So the young people need to know this history in depth so that they can fight for us.

I'm 61 years old.

I ain't even fight no more.

They said I got arthritis and money year last year.

You know, I'm doing the best I can and we've got to raise them up so they can help make this country the good place that I know that it can be.

I love that I wasn't.

And, Sarah, as we, close this portion of our, of our time together, you spoke about your role in the church and what it had done for you to get through what you've been going through and what you had to endure.

So, Lisa, I want you to just kind of in this conversation for us.

On what role do you feel the church, the black church, the church has, played in your healing and in getting through this moment?

I think all the churches, the black church needs to continue the work that we did back then, fighting, being a part of the process, outreach, reaching out to people.

We have like a million churches in Birmingham, but like, it's like a handful of people in some of them.

We need to go back and reach out to the people that we've lost.

We've forgotten, the white church needs to be a part of that, too.

I happen to be now a member of a predominantly white church, and there is a movement to fight for what's right.

Fight for peace.

Fight for that.

You know, our our pastor posted, a really great post last Saturday about, the, the, the president's post.

And he caught a little flack for that, you know, because most people matters are white.

Like, it's 6000 people.

I think they might be 25 of us anyway.

So, but he knows what's right.

So all the churches.

Because if Jesus, it was the first commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your strength.

And the second one is much like it to love your neighbor as yourself.

If that is our mandate, then all of the churches need to be preaching that and teaching that.

Now that this moment, we are about to begin our Q&A.

For those who are joining us via live stream, live stream, and the radio audience, I'm Larry Macon, Jr.

senior pastor of the Mount Zion Church of Oakwood Village and moderator for today's conversation.

Today, we're hearing from author Lisa McNair, whose older sister Denise was one of the four girls murdered in the 1963 bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church.

Also joining is Sarah Collins Rudolph, the fifth girl and sole survivor of the blast.

We welcome questions from everyone City Club members, guests, students and those joining via our live stream at City club.org or live radio broadcast at 89.7 WKSU Ideas Stream public media.

If you'd like to text a question, please text to this number (330)541-5794.

That's (330)541-5794.

And city club staff will try to work it into the program.

So now we'll have our first question please.

My name is TJ.

I'm a member of Village Saint Joseph High School.

I'm a 12 grade student.

My question is, when you look back at that day, do you believe that God put you in that place in situation for a reason?

Because I feel as though I speak on behalf of everyone here when I say that day was very tragic, but I believe it was a blessing in disguise that you got to live and tell your story and educate the youth and even elders to do something about racial acts and discrimination.

So I guess my question is, do you believe that God put you in this situation to educate the generations after you, even though it came at a heartbreaking cost?

Oh yeah.

I know he had to.

I know he had to, put me in that place, because I remember when the girls came into the, ladies lounge, I was over on the side talking to my sister.

So when they, I went in and said, you care?

Okay.

Me, I went on the other side, you know, and like I just always said, I just went over there and, where the sink were, and, I was looking at Denise, coming in and tied a sash on her dress and we all was just looking at to get really look at her tattered sash Said, you know, you reach your hands out like this.

Boom.

The bomb went off, and, we neither one of us got a chance to see Denise tattoo sash on her dress.

Same record.

You know what happened to them?

But, got back me to have one good at.

I could have went black.

He took one, did the deal.

We took one.

But I know there had to be God to tell me to go on the other side, and, it will prophesy that to me that, it was a prophet.

And he prophesied to me, and he told me that he seen this all around me.

He asked me, he said, do you know?

He asked me, say, do you know who what?

What is it that I'm seeing?

So I say, yes.

He said, don't you know you supposed to be and kill one of beings?

But he fell on you.

But God sent his angel Katie.

And when he told me to, I know it was God.

And people would ask me.

Basically, young people would ask me, did I get angry with God or what happened to me?

I always tell him, no, because God spare my life when I sing.

The two tell me was all, messed up and and everything.

I know he about me out because how could anybody Leo.

How could they life be saved when they were full of girls and and one was brought out alive?

Oh, God.

Spare me for a reason.

I go around telling people about God and letting them know that it's time to really wake up and get your life right with the Lord cast.

So I really believe one day he coming back home and I don't want to be, and I don't want to be left.

I don't want to be left behind.

We know one day he's coming and we all got to get our life right with him.

I mean, he saved me and he said that me and be me.

Fill me with the Holy Ghost.

And I didn't know what the Holy Ghost would say one day.

One day I started dancing in church.

He would move in my feet.

And now he did dancing around the church.

And I said, as I said, what is this?

That is, I see you there.

I said, what is this?

I'm dancing around a church like this.

He said, that's the Holy Ghost.

From the so.

So I go around and tell the people it's time to get right with God, because we don't know when it come.

When I really, I really believe he on his way.

You going to take no that are really God to be really a man.

God we don't want to go to a day of a sale, but we got to choose.

We will go.

So we going to be God is going to be the devil.

So I just thank God he put it in my heart to get my life right.

Well, man, thank you, thank you.

I want you to draw a through line between then and now, because at the time, at the time, Birmingham was known as Birmingham.

And I wanted to know what information you mentioned.

You were 12 at the time.

What information was conveyed to you about it being bombing harm and a sense of being protected or guarded in your moves and things like that, and drawing that through today where we see eyes running rampant.

And yet there's a certain amount of forgive my language ignorance, if you will, in communities that feel they are being impacted.

If you could talk about that, through line from then to there, from the Klan to the eyes.

Thank you.

Well, you know, it's no different in it, you know, you know, the Klan is where the white man's now.

They walk around in suits, so they still if the if they are, they're still out there.

They can.

So the ax is now they wearing in mass and they go around doing the same thing.

They declare you still do, but they doing it out there in the public, you know, the Klan.

You to go around and I run across and when bombed homes and churches, we just see, you know, now in the open, you know, they, they can't had now, they can't because, I always count there are axes, the devil, because you find people that don't have any love.

That's it.

That's that's the devil.

And, they don't care.

They don't care about killing people.

They don't care about heart, and people because they're the same way they claim is if to go and look like they going backwards, they try to, you know, get this started again, this race, this race thing again because, you will see Birmingham, you know, and, you know, United State.

They used to have all kind of people coming here.

They would welcome, you know, Mexican and people from all over the country.

They were welcome here when that Iran and I'm back and, and they don't want the people to, you know, the only thing they wanted to do, really was work.

And it was good workers, too.

You put a roof on your house, and one day and, they they and they put.

It was good work then and now.

I guess they would have taken a minor from the white man.

So they ran their mouth, you know.

But anyway, it's no different.

Take our question.

My name is Iamede and my question today is what helped you deal with the trauma of that experience, like how to do the years if they are still experienced some sort of trauma or some sort of like PTSD?

What helps you deal with it?

Well, I still deal with it.

I have post-traumatic stress disorder.

You know, that's something that just in my in my spirit, you know, and, when I hear a loud voice, I may allow sound, you know, back there during that time when I was, calm and, they used to hear these, cars.

They used to back there lot.

And every time I hear back, I'm jumping, you know, I just something that just gone stay in me.

But, like I was telling you, God did hear me.

I had a nervous condition and a fear.

And I believe one day he.

You hear me up there, too?

Yeah.

My name is Betty, representing the Northeast Ohio Community Resilience Center.

One of the things that, to me is really appalling is this thing about taking away our history, taking down our history, closing our museums, taking things, monuments and things off of walls.

What do you feel about how do you feel about that?

Because you really can't take what we know and what we experienced, right?

But to do it and make that look acceptable, it's not acceptable.

Drawing.

Mama, my mama would say is wrong is.

So let's use is just not right.

Right.

But they don't want you to know the history.

They don't want our kids to know the history they don't want and think it was a wave of all of us trying to get together.

But there was a culture that didn't want us to get together.

And if we quash our museums, we take away our history.

We don't teach it.

Then they're thinking, well, nobody will remember that, and everything will be beautiful and wonderful, and we won't deal with the ugliness that is part of our country.

But what they don't understand, the only way for true healing to take place is take it out the rug and deal with it.

So we just have to fight, you know, to protest that, we don't we're at a time where we don't get to do a whole lot of rest.

We're not going to be doing a whole lot of rest, you know, not going to be taking a whole lot of vacations.

We get to do work, and we're going to do work when we don't feel like it.

We'll have to do work when we might want to watch TV.

That latest thing on Netflix, we need to make calls to our senators and congressmen and tell them that's not okay.

You know, I put you in office and you got that job because of me, because you work for me.

And I think we forget that is, as Americans that we they work for us.

We've got to every one of us needs to be a voice for what is right in this country and constantly and regularly.

in your book, Lisa, which is I understand, is here you have your book here on sale in that excellent book you wrote, you talked about, the journey to the past, the program.

Can you tell us a little bit about what that program is and how members of this community might connect to that to get young people connected to their history?

Thank you.

Thank you, my friend.

A sojourn to the past is a nonprofit organization based in California that brings students, juniors and seniors in high school through, nine day trip to learn about the civil rights movement and nonviolence.

And it is a fantastic organization.

And then my dear friend Penny Webb being a go, oh, there she is.

She has a it's a branch of it that's in Mahoney County, Mahoney County sojourn to the past.

And she brings about ten kids every year.

When?

10 or 12 when they come on this trip.

It's a wonderful, immersive, nine days where the kids learn about the civil rights movement.

They travel on a motor coach through the South and meet people like me and Sierra and other people.

They go to different places, they read books, they write papers.

Kids can get college credit for taking this trip.

It's a trip like none other in the whole country.

And I meet a lot of tour groups all year long.

It's a wonderful organization.

So I know Sojourn Project is the main, location.

That's original.

And so how do they reach you, Mahoney?

Valley soldier.

You get with Penny.

But it was.

I've been on several of them.

I went when I was in my late 30s.

I think early, early 40s.

I'm getting old.

It's hard to remember how much.

You know, I love it.

But, I learned stuff that I didn't know as a grown adult about my own history in this country and taught by somebody who really teaches it and makes you think it makes you listen.

So if you've got a kid, you've got kids in your neighborhood.

They need to go on this trip.

You know, they need to be a part of this.

You know, it is so important for them to know.

But essentially, if they're going to stop teaching this stuff in school, they need to know our real, true civil rights history.

Thank you.

my question to you is, where do you see hope happening?

And Lisa, you just mentioned it with this program, The Sojourn.

But are there other places?

Are there other programs?

Are there people that are walking that walk and making strides?

Because I think that's the thing to hold on to, that we can bring forward.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I have hope first.

I have hope first because I'm a Christian.

And if you don't have hope, you don't have anything.

So you give up your hope.

You might as well just die.

It's a wrap.

So you got to have hope.

Number two, the young people, the young people are so open and and and knowledge and stuff, but also they live amongst each other.

Like when I grew up, it was black neighborhoods and white neighborhoods.

But black people live with white people and they go to high school.

You see them, they need to go on to the prom.

So they think this whole racist thing is crazy.

They like, oh, that ain't cool.

I came up with that.

And and when I go on a soldier trips, the prevailing question the students have is, well, why?

Well, why?

It makes no sense to them.

So that's the third second thing that gives me hope.

There are things that gives me hope is even in Alabama, I love go to the grocery store, to the Walmart.

And I see this old white couple and they got this mixed baby in the shopping cart.

And they just love the they're they're not going to let nobody heard that.

Right.

And they got to stand up for whatever rights he or she has.

Yeah.

So I think we've come too far to now separate.

But we gotta fight that it stays that way.

And you.

Right.

I'm Sierra.

Hi, Lisa.

Hi, Sarah.

I just want to really commend you, like, your story is very movement.

I didn't shed tears.

And I just want to let you know that this is my first time hearing your story, and.

Wow, I grew up in black history, you know, classes.

But I never heard this story.

And it's is very movement.

And I'm a young girl that's in a community empowerment group.

And I've been in this community empowerment group since I was 16 years old.

And my community and I just want to like, it's like, what advice can you give to me as a young woman that just heard your story?

That's really upset about it?

I, because it's just like you guys endure so much, you you definitely have a purpose.

And you lead.

Sarah, you stated something earlier about pain.

Turning.

Your pain has a purpose, and you have a purpose here.

And I want to ask you, did you did you find your purpose from the pain that you went through?

Come on.

Email Sarah.

Oh, there.

Oh, yeah.

I found my purpose.

Right.

You know, at first I would, afraid to go in church, and I know that we're just the enemy because, you know, something like that happened to you in church.

You, your sister get killed, and you get halfway black.

And, you know, I know that the enemy enemy thought I want go was going back to church no more.

At first, I started visiting church, and that's what I call.

I'm going to visit this church, this son visit this church next Sunday.

That's all I used to do.

Because I was too afraid to really, join a church.

Ran away after God had, healed me.

I went on, I joined churches that I wouldn't fear for anymore.

So I really believe that found my purpose in really in ministry.

Because, now I'm the superintendent of the, the Sunday school.

Oh, God.

This guy.

Now was.

I was afraid to even go to Sunday school after that happened.

Now I'm the superintendent.

When.

So in a way, I still go around.

I tell people about about my, healing.

So when you when the same thing happens, you like, did the Bible say, don't don't, don't just let your testimony not be who?

So a lot of people, when they hear my testimony, I have God hear me.

Many people have come to God.

Praise God, their life together, you know, because I know God didn't spare me to smoke my marijuana.

Yeah, yeah.

God did not smell.

God didnt spare me to drink alcohol, you know, man, Colt 45.

You know, he looks back.

He's.

Oh.

But anyway.

Anyway, you know, that's what I used to do to get to to get myself together to be true.

I did, I drank, I used to go up and and I smoked my alcohol and, and I say to myself one day, I know God is where my faith is, and I will.

And I wanted to stop, but I couldn't stop until God took it away, you know?

So when I tell people about my.

So when I tell people about my testimonies, many people have come to God, you know, they didn't believe.

They didn't believe God would do what he did for me, you know?

So I know, that was my purpose in life, to get so excited back and tell people about the goodness of God.

Hallelujah.

Amen.

Lord.

That's awesome.

Yes.

Well, I wanted to know about you, your testimony.

So because you have pain and trauma as well, you know, your sister.

So I wanted to know how you carry through as well.

Well, basically, like Sarah, my faith, I keep a big old Bible in my bed and it's got all the all marked up and highlighted, you know, and, when this last president got elected, I was traumatized.

I was, like, so traumatized, you know, because, like, I've seen it be bad.

I heard about it be bad.

I get born, then get out there and get the country, get safe and good, and then all of a sudden it's going to be bad again.

Literally number six, I was like, where do I go?

Where I can be safe?

Who's going to protect me?

You know, I know who's the cover.

Me not, you know, that's what you get to have.

But, you know, I and my parents didn't leave me.

No.

Millions of dollars.

I go move some other country.

I don't know nobody, no other country.

So I ain't really trying to do that.

Well, I do notice one Q guy with a high school.

We mean, there's a cap, but, you know what?

What am I going to do?

And what was funny was that morning I woke up and I was going to I was ready to be a have a fit.

And that's like prostrate in flow crack.

Before I could get, I have to be at three of my white friends called me starting at six in the morning.

They were crying, so I had to pull them off the lid, for I could even have my way.

And then by the third day afterwards, I had a complete fall apart.

I just came unglued, I just cried, I couldn't get it together and my sister and brother in law, they kind of comforted me.

And on my way to my room, I literally walked to my bedroom.

I heard Jesus say, I didn't bring you this far to leave and I've been okay since then.

I go.

I keep remembering that I got some scriptures I read, every morning, 6 or 8:00.

I might have my alarm set to play, Do something.

No weapon formed against me shall prosper every day.

It won't work.

No weapon.

So that's what I do to keep myself up and never forget that he has me.

City club, we have Sarah Collins, Rudolph and Lisa McNair.

Thank you all for that.

Pastor Larry, for moderating today's conversation.

Forms like this one are made possible thanks to generous support from individuals like you.

You can learn more about how to become a guardian of free speech at City club.org.

Today's forum is part of the City Club's Authors in Conversation series.

And thank you to Third Space Reading Room for providing the on site book sales for our guests today.

And a reminder if you did not.

I know there's a lot of questions.

If you don't have a chance to to ask your question here in person, they will be signing books in the library.

And please feel free to get in the line.

Today's forum is also part of our City Club's Health Equity Series in partnership with the Saint Luke's Foundation.

Our gratitude to Tim Tremble, Peter Witt and the entire Saint Luke's team for their partnership as we mark Black History Month.

Finally, today's forum is also the Colleen Shaughnessy Memorial Forum.

A Saint Louis native, Colleen came to Cleveland in the 1980s as Sherrod Brown campaign manager and eventually served as his deputy director.

She was an enthusiastic, honest and idealistic community builder and demanded commitment and social awareness from all of those in her life.

We're grateful to her family, friends, and colleagues for honoring her with this endowment gift in support of City Club programing, the City Club would like to welcome students joining us from Brush High School, High Tech Academy, and Villa Angela Saint Joseph High School.

Thank you all for being here.

Great questions from our students too.

We'd also like to welcome guests.

The table is hosted by Ark Alpha Omega chapter, the Jewish Federation of Cleveland, KeyBank, Mount Zion, Oakwood Village Church, the Northeast Ohio Black Health Coalition, and the Saint Luke's Foundation.

Thank you all again for being here.

And next Friday, February 20th, we will join in a year long celebration of literary legend and Nobel Prize winning Ohioan Toni Morrison.

Yes, Kortney Morrow with the Anisfeld-Wolf book awards will be in conversation with Namwali Serpell, a Harvard professor and author of the book on Morrison.

Can't miss it.

I hope to see you all there.

Thank you once again to our esteemed guests and to members and friends of the City Club.

I'm Cynthia Connolly and this forum is now adjourned.

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