The ideas expressed in the Akron Roundtable Signature Series are those of the speakers, not of the Akron Roundtable, its partners or sponsors.

Akron Round Table has the good fortune of celebrating 50 years in 2026.

50 years?

That's half a century.

And throughout 2026, will welcome speakers with deep Akron roots who have gone on to make a remarkable impact in the world.

The Akron Roundtable legacy is one that proves stories matter.

Many of us are still moved to action by public speakers, particularly those who recognize they, too, can change the world through the beauty of inspiration.

With that, your next speaker is no stranger to Akron.

A local legend in his own right.

One who needs no introduction.

But I have the privilege of doing so today.

Let's give a round of applause as we invite sports columnist, faith columnist, author and public speaker Terry Pluto to the stage.

You know, when I was working at the Beacon Journal and Brian just started, I said one day my goal in life would be the opening act for Brian Wynn, Hertz's homecoming.

And that is so cool for me to see that, because, you know, they always talk about the kid from Akron.

Of course, LeBron's the, the most famous one.

But what Brian has done and what is what I've watched I mean, at one time he was my protege.

I remember this was a very big debate we had who was more overrated, Brian?

Phil Jackson, coach of the Bulls or Lamb or the Cavs?

The Cavs mascot.

I'm like, why am I even have this discussion with him?

But he was a young lad at that time and he really basically wanted to grow up to cover the NBA and be me.

And I was thinking, well, I hope, you know, watch what you wish for.

But no, actually watch what you go for and go for it hard.

To see what Brian has done.

As I mentioned before, he's my protege.

We did two LeBron books together because one of the things that we learned just like how LeBron would recruit his own teams at times is whether was an AEW team or whatever.

When we were doing a book called The Franchise on LeBron, I brought Brian into it because he had the connections with them and in terms of shoe deals.

And now why am I mentioning this?

Because he did the work back then to find the right things to get to the story.

And it's many, many moons later and he's still doing it, unlike a lot of his contemporaries in the national media who just get on and scream and call names, Brian actually goes after information and tries to convey it in a way that's interesting and entertaining, and it's the kind of stuff that I am proud to say that I saw him develop this on top of it at ESPN.

It's a very, very high pressure place.

I've done you know, a few little things for them here and there.

It's like, have a hot take.

Got some.

Yeah, get some attention.

It doesn't matter what you say and who you lay out in the process.

He doesn't play that game.

For all Brian has done he's done a lot.

The thing that I am so happy to say about him and so pleased to say he has done it with integrity and with class, and that reflects so well on his roots here, be it at Saint V or West Side of Akron.

And so with that, I'm just going to turn it over to him, because opening act should be very quick and this one is over.

Thank you Terry.

Thank you for doing that.

Thank you all for coming out this afternoon.

Really appreciate it.

You know, it's appropriate that this is the 50th year because, 30 years ago this spring, I'm glad they're students here because I was a student at Saint Vincent, Saint Mary, my senior year in 1996, which scary me that that is 30 years ago.

And I came to the Akron Roundtable.

Was that Tangier back in those days?

And I heard Terry Pluto speak, 30 years ago, and I mentioned this to Terry, and he said, I absolutely have no memory of that whatsoever.

And I will say two things about that day.

One, Terry did not wear a jacket.

So we are already this is most impressive.

He could do for me was wear a jacket.

And the second thing is he was talking about the most important matters of the sport of that day.

The people were vitally interested in getting an answer to this question, which was who were the Browns going to get to be a quarterback?

And if I could go back to that day now and talk to myself 30 years younger, I would be many things that I would tell myself.

You know, I would tell myself that I would do two books with Terry Pluto, who was there, you know, you know, in on that day, you know, Terry, I said a minute ago, how many books have you done?

He goes, I don't even know.

It's in like the 30s or 40s.

And I would I would say that, you know, maybe one day you'll come back here and speak up here, and that would be great.

And I feel like my younger self would say, did the Browns ever get a quarterback?

And I would say, no.

But the good news is, is that they're building a stadium by the airport, because that's going to go really well.

Huntington Bank, though, it'll be a great name, right?

Ron?

Ron Pardo, my family member who got me to, come today.

So, I will say that actually the Browns were not even a topic in those days because they were gone, and that I think, is such a certain thing, is you always can appreciate, you know, it's easy to appreciate what you don't have.

And so that's one of the things that I think is, you know, in spending the last 30 years going through this journey that's brought me away from the Round table and back, I have learned so many things, you know, having Akron roots and going out and being in the world, whether it's across America or across the globe.

And, you know, one thing that's been amazing and I was so incredibly fortunate to be from Akron, but also to be, you know, in the era of LeBron James.

And so I am incredibly grateful to him.

I'm incredibly fortunate that I was able to, to sort of be here when he was here.

And, you know, I feel like, he's, you know, enabled me to like, he has so many people across the sports landscape and all of this city itself.

Has he has risen the ocean for all of us.

And I've been a part of the ships that have increased.

And I think whenever I have an opportunity, when people come talk to me, they really they want to know a few things and they want to know what is LeBron really like?

How many times have I gotten that question over the last, you know, 26 years?

Because I met him actually in the 90s, believe it or not, in the same decade that I was in high school, I met him in 1999 at Cuyahoga Falls High School on a Friday night, his first, his first game.

But people ask me a lot about what he's really like.

And that answer has changed over the years, because one of the things that has happened as I've gone on this journey is how much I've learned from him and from all these high level athletes and coaches and executives that Terry and I have a chance to be around and talk to all the time.

And, you know, the thing that I just have been fascinated about and written about and talked about so much is how he taught me so much when he was so young.

And I always think of when he was a senior in high school going to do his first shoe deal, he's 18 years old.

And, you know, he had gone through his high school championships.

He'd won all of these, won all those games and he'd, you know, lit up the the whole, the whole town and, you know, really brought a spotlight on to Akron.

But, you know, in many ways, he was still an average student.

He was going to school every day.

He he had a press conference one day at Saint Be declared.

He was turning pro and then went back to class.

Okay.

And so there was a Thursday in the spring of his senior year in 2003.

Just like today, a Thursday.

He went to school, he left school and there was a limo there, and he picked him up and took him to Akron Canton Airport, and he got on a jet.

I don't know if he'd ever been on a private jet before.

Chances are this is his first one.

He's been on a few since, and he flew to Boston and again, 18 years old.

You know, like I, I at the time, you know, I was covering him for the Akron Beacon Journal, I think I was 23 or 24.

I graduated 96.

He graduated in 2003, seven years apart.

And I, I didn't I was just sort of covering the day to day events.

I wasn't I couldn't process that.

This was an 18 year old.

Now as I'm older and think back of what was on his plate, I can't I can't comprehend it.

So with his agent and his mother, they flew to Boston to meet with Reebok, and Reebok had had somebody living in, Akron, for weeks preparing to make this pitch.

They hired outside consultants.

They prepared a whole presentation.

But really, the basis of it was their move that they did at the end.

And they're in this boardroom outside Boston where their headquarters are at, and they pulled out a check.

Chairman, the CEO of Reebok pulled out a check with LeBron's name on it, a cashier's check for $10 million.

And he told them if he signed with Reebok there, he could take the check with him.

And you have to understand that while LeBron had moved out of the phase of his life where he was, you know, unsure of his where his next meal would come from or where his housing would be.

You know, he had a Hummer.

I don't know if y'all heard, you know, they had a line of credit.

They still were not wealthy.

And Gloria, his mom, who, you know, for many years didn't have $2 to rub together, much less 10 million was sitting there.

And this is an actually an old trick.

It's a trick that they would use, on young artists throughout time.

Right?

They would come with the bag of cash and they would say, sign this contract.

And you know what?

I wouldn't you know, I think this contract was a pretty good contract.

But the idea was, if you don't sign it right now, no contract, you're out.

And, and what I have more amazed now than when I first heard this story is that he had the ability to say no, 18 year old, $10 million check on the table.

He did not know what the other shoe companies were going to offer.

Maybe they were going to offer more money.

By the way, it was $10 million for the check.

He was also going to get like $70 million for the contract that came later.

This was just he literally could have gone down to National City Bank or Bank one or wherever was around in those days and put the money in, and he would have had $10 million to his name the next day.

And by the way, he flew back and went to save on Friday.

Can you imagine that?

You went to homeroom?

What you guys do last night?

Oh, I got off for $10 million.

And he said no.

Now, he did have an agent, and the agent advised him to say no and all of those things.

But what it taught me was that he had, even at a very young age, incredible perspective.

And that perspective.

Well, it has developed over the years.

That perspective has been so important to his story.

And, as I got older and spent more time with him and went through some highs and lows, that perspective only got more and more developed.

And while he has so many attributes, obviously his physical size, he's extremely intelligent.

I've talked a lot about how he's his memory is one of the like Terry is experiences where he'll go chapter and verse on a game from five years ago.

I remember one time I was with him in Golden State and he hit a game winner, and this is when he was with the heat.

This is at the old Oracle Arena.

This is back before the Warriors were any good.

And he hit a game winning shot like at the buzzer.

Hit a shot.

And we were in the locker room after the game.

And I said you know you hit a shot here when you're with the Cavs to win the game I, I think it was from the same spot.

And he goes no no no.

That one was a step back.

And it was like 4 or 5ft to the left.

And it was over the top of, you know, Baron Davis.

And you know, he grabbed my arm and I yanked it away.

I went back and looked up YouTube and it was like to the frame.

Exactly correct.

And I realized it was a big shot, but I was at both of them, and I only loosely remembered it.

And I like to think I ever got a good memory.

And so he's got, you know, this incredible memory, and he's got all of these, you know, obviously a lot going for him.

But his perspective is what, was so, so and so, you know, ahead of its time and as I watched him and by the way, does it mean he's made mistakes?

He obviously made mistakes.

A lot of people who are really smart in the NBA and make a lot of money and have really high success will make mistakes.

But as time went on, I and I watched that perspective just become so important for example, when he left Cleveland, it was a good decision.

It hurt a lot of people, and the way he did it was obviously a mistake, and he would take it back.

But now you wouldn't take back leaving.

I think he would take back the way he did it.

But how can we say it wasn't a good decision?

You know, he went and won what, the four straight finals and won two championships.

And the cows were able to refresh.

And it totally changed, you know, the course of history and so, a lot of his decisions have been really smart.

And, this course of history, as I've gone with him and going all these games, he it helped me learn some things.

And 23 this is now 23 years.

It's very easy for me to know how many years LeBron is in the league and also how many years I've been covering the league, because my first year covering the NBA was in 2003, his first year.

And at some point his years will stop and I hope my years are keep going.

I hope they don't throw me out.

But, in 23 years covering the NBA, one of the things is I've had a chance to do is even when LeBron hasn't gone to the finals, which he's gone ten times, because that means there's been 13 times where he has and I've gone to like seven or 8 or 9 other finals and covered teams all the way to the end.

And, you know, been in these cities when they win championships.

Let me just tell you, Oklahoma City has some work to do, because last year when they won that championship, you know, we we all sort of tiptoed out in the streets like what's it going to be like out here.

And it was crickets.

There were there were police officers with like tape for blocks.

They were just standing there, you know, I mean, the Oklahoma City is going to these guys still got to grow up a little bit as a, as a, as a sports town that way.

But the opportunity to to like be in totally immersed in with these teams from round after round, it's been every year a learning experience and 23 years in, you know, ten of those finals with LeBron.

So many different experiences.

You know, I've had a great opportunity to cover, the national team for the last decade.

So couple of Olympics, you know, couple of World Cups, you know, all over the planet.

I think I've covered basketball on five continents.

It's really gotten me into like a couple of immutable facts about the NBA that I sort of feel like LeBron probably learned about the same time I did, because I watched him learn and as I watch young players who come in and it's it's it's kind of surreal now because there are many players now in the NBA who are who were not even born yet when I started covering the league.

And there are, you know, there's, you know, these deal with these agents and, you know, I'll be haggling with an agent over something and he'll be like, you know, he'll be mad at me about something I said or wrote.

And we'll be going back and forth.

And I'm like, Mark, I've known you as long I've known you longer in.

This kid's been alive.

What are we arguing about?

You know, like, So you sort of see the whole breadth of stuff.

So I feel like I've been around long enough to learn some things, but not quite long enough to be a stick in the mud.

I'm working on my stick in the mud credentials.

Hopefully I'll get there soon.

But.

So I'm sort of in this, this zone.

And I think LeBron's kind of in that zone too.

You can kind of see it if you see some of these interviews that he does and the way he sort of lets himself go, like when he was in Cleveland a few weeks ago, he would never have let himself cry before a game when he was 32.

Forget about 25.

He's let himself go because he's seen a lot now and he can see it.

He see things with a clear vision.

So of my 23 years, I will tell you the three things that I always share with young players.

If they care about asking me, or old coaches if they want to have a talk over dinner or something.

And LeBron did a big he he there was he played a big role in me learning these things.

But I apply them to my own career and I apply them when I try to take in and watch basketball and really other sports, but basketball in particular.

And the first rule that I really have learned is that in basketball, there is always time.

And this is a rule that applies broadly across the game, is particularly true in the NBA.

And what I mean by that is that the game is outrageously forgiving because the game is so long, and the NBA season in particular is so long.

I mean, it started off training camp begins in September.

The finals are in June.

You look at the Cavaliers.

The Cavaliers were underachieving for months, months.

They were underachieving basically for the entire football season.

They make a trade and it's like they're totally reinvigorated.

And they still have like months left.

And this is the thing like people people are like, oh, this team will never I see this happen.

Like with really experienced people that I work with, even my guys who are like won championships as players.

I won't say their names, but you may know them and they'll say this team isn't going to get it done.

I'm like, what are you talking about?

It's February.

What are you talking about?

It's game three.

What are you talking about?

It's only the start of the fourth quarter.

There is always time.

You see this?

And it's it's not only something that somebody who's behind can think about.

Because obviously, if you're behind in something, you're behind in the season, you're behind in the game, you're behind in the playoff series.

I mean, there's always time practically could be the anniversary through the, leave the theme of the 2016 Cavs, right?

I mean, if there's never been a better example of is always time in 2016 and and so I see that and it's so important to be successful in basketball.

And by the way, in someone's career like mine, I've been covering like for 23 years.

I've been at ESPN for 15 years.

Sometimes at ESPN things don't go well.

You have a you have you have a setback.

There's always time.

Okay.

So that is I want you to think about that.

When you see a team ahead by 20 or behind by 20, you see ahead 2-0 in a series down 3-1 in a series.

Yes.

Obviously the buzzer eventually sounds.

Yes.

Teams that are down three one usually lose, but there's always time.

That's number one.

Number two.

And this one LeBron taught me in the biggest way.

You have to learn to take an L because basketball is about loss.

Even the best teams in basketball lose a lot particularly in the NBA.

And when I go around the world, people are they always have one topic that they want to talk to me about.

And nowadays I'm dealing with players, fathers.

I've graduated to the I know the father stage and their father is always I'm telling you, there's like ten NBA fathers.

The first time I see them, they start talking trash to anybody want to guess what you're talking trash about?

They say Michael Jordan was better than your boy LeBron.

I mean, they line up to talk about this.

This is what they always want to talk about.

Right.

And they always say 606060.

In the finals LeBron lost however many I think he lost six.

He lost six.

And they say Jordan's untouchable.

Well that's true.

The bronze is never going to be six zero in the finals.

But I'm here to tell you that the most important moments of LeBron's career were when he lost.

Because if you saw what he went through, saw how his season would end in defeat and he would get back up and come back the next year, people use it against him.

They use it against players when they when they lose.

But like what happens when they recover?

Like, do you know to go to one finals.

You know there hasn't people in there.

If you follow the NBA, there hasn't been a repeat champion in the NBA since 2018 when the Warriors beat the Cavs.

Four well, so that's been seven years.

There hasn't been a repeat team to get to two finals in a row since the Warriors went to five in a row, so 2019 this decade there hasn't even been a team to make two finals in a row.

Okay.

It's hard.

It's hard to make two finals in a row because there's always time.

Because these playoffs last two months and what have you LeBron went to eight in a row eight in a row.

And people say well yeah well what happens when he lost.

When he lost he picked himself back up in some cases changed teams which you know sometimes made a little news change teams reformed his team.

Sometimes the players he wanted to get were a good choice.

Sometimes they were a bad choice and came back the next year, you know, and that's on the big scale.

But I'm talking about even on the small scale, you know, every year the circus, when the circus still existed, the circus would come.

Actually, you know what?

It was the Ice Capades.

When Disney on Ice.

I'm a Disney employee and it's probably coming here soon.

Disney on Ice came to Cleveland in January.

So every year in January, the cows went on a long road trip.

And when he was in Miami, the circus came to Miami every January.

So every January, for his first 15 years of his career, LeBron always went on a 1012, 14 day road trip to the West Coast.

These road trips, when the schedule comes out, you're like, oh my gosh, look at this road trip.

I get to go to the West Coast for two weeks in January, you know, get to be in Los Angeles, get to be in Phoenix.

Oh, that's going to be great.

But let me tell you, when you're on day 7 or 8 and you were in Sacramento and you run a back to back in Denver, they got a little tough.

And almost always those those road trips.

I'm telling you, out of 15 years it probably happened nine times.

They would end the trip in Salt Lake City.

Trips would always end in Salt Lake City or Denver.

And they don't play on Sunday in Salt Lake City.

At least they didn't last.

They didn't anymore.

I don't know, maybe they do now.

Back then, they didn't play on Sunday in Salt Lake City.

There was a no day, no go day with the Mormons.

So they always played on Saturday, which meant they always played on Friday, which means they always end of the trips with the back to back.

And so over the years, LeBron got his head beat in Salt Lake City because notoriously it would be like day nine of the trip.

Day 11 of the trip, game five of the trip.

And it would be the biggest game on the calendar for the jazz.

And some of those years of jazz had good teams for most of those years.

They didn't.

But LeBron's teams were always worn down, even in Miami, when those great teams were.

They had bad losses in Salt Lake City, and he'd come into Salt Lake City and they'd lose a couple of times.

They lost, like in spectacular fashion.

It was one game where Gordon Hayward had a shot at the buzzer.

If you know the name Sundiata Gaines, bonus points for you.

There was a guy on a ten day contract named Sundiata Gaines with a three pointer to beat the Cavs one game in Salt Lake City.

And what would happen is the fans who are not.

They don't have the greatest reputation for treating the visiting fans great.

They're the fans would be all over him, and he'd come in to the post-game press conference and, he would get interviewed by LeBron.

These jazz got you again.

Boy, they own you here, don't they?

Yep yep.

Great win for the jazz.

Yeah.

And he you know year after year is almost an annual right.

Go take your beating in Salt Lake City.

And the game we over.

He would go through his routine with the media and he would stand up.

And he put on his $10,000 suit like ten years ago.

They quit wearing suits, but for a while he wore $10,000 suit, and he would go on to his private jet and say, I'll take the L and I'll see you in the finals when you guys are at home.

Because that's what kept happening, because he kept going to the finals while the jazz fans were at home.

But on that Saturday night in January, you take the L. And so that is a lesson.

Sometimes you've got to take that L how do you respond to a setback?

Everybody's going to have them.

This is something that when people come to ESPN and people arrive at the company and they and they want to talk to me, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

I always tell them, you think that you have arrived when you get to ESPN, but it's actually harder to be successful at ESPN than it is to get there for various reasons.

That's another talk for another day.

But I also tell them, you have to understand that sometimes you're going to take an L. Sometimes at ESPN, there's going to be a show that you want to be on.

There's going to be a job that you want.

There's going to be a role that you really covet, and it's not going to go your way.

Sometimes you're going to be in a job and the boss is going to change.

The wind is going to change.

You're going to get knocked out.

It happens.

Okay.

And I had to take this.

My own advice I've had at times when I have lost a position within ESPN or a role on a show, or I wanted something and didn't get it, I had to look in the mirror and say, take the L, just take the L and keep going.

I got that from learning from LeBron.

Yes, I got it.

When I would sit there and watch him in tears after he would lose a finals game, after he would lose the finals, which happened, or even in the earlier in the playoff rounds.

But I also got it from him from going to Salt Lake City in the middle of January, all those times and watching how there can be character building to just take it out and take the high road and say, I'll see you in the finals.

So that's lesson number two that I've learned over the course of 20 some years covering the NBA.

Lesson number three.

And this is a lesson that I've I've just talked about that I that LeBron has helped me.

This is a lesson that if he were here today I would offer to him.

He already knows it, but I would offer it to him especially for what's coming ahead.

And that is if you can choose between happiness and money.

Take happiness.

Now, you've probably heard this your whole life because I know when I was young, I heard money can't buy happiness.

It's one of the things that they teach you.

I want to tell you that I live in a world where I deal with billionaires and millionaires, multi-millionaires, all day long.

I spend time with these guys all the time and you would be stunned how many of them are unhappy?

Okay, now you can't.

At stages of your life, you can't always choose happiness over money because you have commitments.

You know, NBA players, for example, a lot of times early in their careers have to sign and they have to get their money guaranteed.

But truly successful people, especially in basketball, can choose when you are truly a success, when you can choose happiness over money.

And I'm going to tell you, one of the people who taught me this lesson, I could give this entire room, each ten guesses about what player taught me this, and you would or at least made an impression on me on this and you would not get it.

And that player, believe it or not, was Mike Bibby, Mike Bibby.

And again, you, if you're one of the students, probably remember who Mike baby was.

Well and the Browns first year in Miami, Mike Bibby took a $5 million buyout.

Took less money, $5 million to leave the Atlanta Hawks to come play for the Miami Heat for a few hundred thousand dollars.

Nowadays, $5 million to a top NBA player that's like a month salary.

I mean, Paul George just got suspended for 25 games, cost him $14 million.

Back then, $5 million was a third of a max contract.

It was a lot of money.

And Mike came to Miami and I was, you know, I was much younger.

I was desperate to find out why he would leave $5 million on the table to come be a backup point guard or whatever for the heat.

And he was very polite.

He could have been mean, but he's very polite in explaining to me that if you have if you're successful enough, you choose happiness over money if you can.

And so LeBron James has earned more money than any player in basketball history.

At least in NBA.

In in earnings, Jordan has him with a shoe deal.

It's pretty good shoe deal.

LeBron did get that Nike deal.

He ended up doing just fine.

By the way.

He got the 10 million Nike match the offer.

So he did a good job by saying no.

But LeBron's made a lot of money.

And I would argue that he chose going to LA.

His last choice was for happiness.

He's got a choice coming at the end of this year and we don't know what the choice.

I don't think he knows what the fuck choice is going to be.

He doesn't know whether his mind will be ready to compete for another season.

He doesn't know whether his body will be ready.

People are asking me this all the time.

Is he going to play?

Is he going to retire?

I don't know, and he doesn't know.

By the way, it's another good lesson.

It doesn't make my top three, but sometimes it's okay to say you don't know.

Not every time.

But sometimes it's okay to say you don't know.

But he's reaching a point here where he's going to have a choice.

He's making $50 million this year.

It's unbelievable salary.

I remember one point in his career, there were players going over to Europe to, to go play in Europe.

And, I remember asking him, well, how much money would it take you to go play in Europe?

He was like, I don't know, man.

Like some unbelievable number that we would never, ever get.

I don't know, like 50 million.

He's made 50 million for like 3 or 4 years now, so it's wait long enough it'll get up there.

He should have said 100, so.

But he's got a choice coming up where he's going to get to choose between happiness and money.

He will have offers if he chooses to keep playing for more money than when he can choose happiness.

But there will be an opportunity for him if he wants it, and if he's mentally engaged in it, to choose happiness.

And like I said, LeBron is someone who has been not only a thought leader, but a thought leader in terms of perspective and and things.

And so when that choice gets to him and he has a choice between money and happiness.

And of course, here's the thing about that, especially in the NBA, happiness is fleeting and not guaranteed, which is why you need to learn to take an owl, which is why you have to always leave time.

But, he will have that choice.

And so we'll see which direction he goes.

I don't know the direction he goes.

Maybe he knows, maybe he doesn't.

But those principles will help you understand basketball better, particularly the NBA game and for me, affect the way I go about doing my job, affect how I go about conducting my career and many people played roles in that.

Conversations with people like Pat Riley, conversations with, you know, people like Danny Ferry, Paul Silas, the late Paul Silas was the first coach that I covered who took me under his wing as a 63 year old coach.

As a 25 year old, he didn't have to give me the time of day.

Taught me so much.

Those conversations all matter.

But LeBron was a part of that and have brought me to this point.

So if you take anything from any, you know, if you can take anything from my experience with with high level sports, you can take those three things.

One of the things I also have learned is when I talk to groups, there's a lot of questions, particularly about the local team.

So I want to leave time to do that.

And Ed Markey, who will come up here and answer the questions.

Ed Markey, by the way, was with the Cavs when I started covering the league 25 years ago.

And so here we are 25 years later.

Thank you, Brian, and thanks, everybody, for being here.

I want to follow up on one topic that you introduced in a couple of different ways, choices and decisions.

And after beginning your career in Akron, working local media, you also had a decision to make in 2010 that was parallel to the decision you mentioned.

Would you take a moment and take us through what decision you had to make for yourself and your career?

Yeah, I'm going to tell you that if I could have frozen time in 2009, I would have frozen.

And I was the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

Cavs won 66 games.

I loved covering that team.

I was I was never happier than I was covering that team.

I did achieve the happiness.

But LeBron went and went to Miami and and then ESPN offered me the job to move to Miami.

And it was not something that I foresaw or really wanted to do, but I, I felt like I had to and I got a lot of blowback.

I remember Ed, I got chased out of my barbershop and because ESPN.

Yeah, ESPN announced it.

And like, I had to work for another two weeks and, it was in the preseason and, they were, you know, they couldn't yell.

LeBron.

So they yelled at me.

And the thing about it was, when I got to Miami, LeBron was so hopping mad at ESPN for the decision because he blamed the fallout largely on ESPN, which again, is another topic for another talk.

He basically told me, it's not your fault, but I'm not talking to you.

So I was getting people in Cleveland saying you're a sycophant, blah, blah, blah.

And I'm like, look, if I'm a sycophant, at least let me get the benefits of being a sycophant.

But no, I was being shunned by LeBron.

I was being shunned.

I remember, the guy who, when I was moving to Miami, I, you know, was bringing these suitcases to the Cleveland airport, and he tagging my bag, and he was trash talking me.

He was tagging my bag.

I'm never going to see these bags again.

So it was a hard decision.

And I got to tell you that I really didn't like living in Miami.

LeBron I don't think like living there.

And the lockout happened, and I basically spent six straight months here in Akron, and I would go to see the football games during the lockout and the Browns at the game to is be like October and the lockout and LeBron's hanging out in Akron.

I'm hanging out in Akron, our places in Miami empty.

His place was a little bit bigger.

And that's when I knew he's coming back.

I knew it in 2011.

He was coming back.

I didn't know when.

And by the way, he knew it too.

So it was a hard decision to leave.

I faced some some, some blowback.

I didn't, want to leave, but it was the right decision for LeBron.

And 15 years later with ESPN, it was the right decision for me.

Another thing you mentioned was helping, folks understand the NBA game a little bit.

And I think a lot of folks who have been longtime NBA fans will look at the way the game is played now and think, this is not the same game I grew up with.

And there are judgments about, well, all these players might have been better or different or what have you.

I'd like you to take a moment and talk about the level of play now.

And while this certainly has changed, what can people do to understand or have a better appreciation for skill level, talent level, etc.?

In today's game.

Are you trying to talk to me about my former colleague JJ Redick, about plumbers and carpenters or whatever?

If you don't like NBA basketball, it's totally your right.

If you prefer watching college basketball, I'm not going to talk you out of it.

Today's NBA players are faster, bigger, stronger and more skilled than I could have ever imagined 23 years ago when I was a kid, when I was in my 20s, I would listen to people like Terry say, well, back in such and such days, it was such and such.

Well, now I'm old enough, Ed, I saw it, and I know that these guys now play at a completely different level than they did then.

Now, you may not like the way the game is.

You may not like the three pointers and you may have a point, but never has the level of basketball that is being played in the NBA have been higher.

There may not be.

There may be certain trends in the game that the league has to look at.

But, as somebody who's around these guys every day, I cannot tell you the level that you have to be to be an NBA player now is outrageous.

And that is actually one of the reasons why it is outrageous that LeBron, at age 41, is still having enormous success.

Yes, there are some nights when his legs are a little dead, and you can tell I almost feel like they should watch him run up and down the court 2 or 3 times and go, not tonight.

Sit down Bronny.

You know, they make Brian sometimes sit in the second row.

It's sad, you know, there's not enough seats in the first row.

Sometimes they make him sit in the second row.

I say when the Browns having an off night, make LeBron go to the second row brownie of the first row.

But but but just a reminder that in 2003 he dominated.

In 2026.

He's dominating even with the skill level going.

So I won't try to talk you out of it if you don't like the method of the game.

But I'm telling you objectively, someone who's on the front line, the level has never been higher.

And one of the things that I think some current fans might have an issue with is, though the game is more demanding and the players are faster and stronger and more physical.

There are nights when they don't play and Jalen Tyson, current Cavalier, had this quote in The Athletic, this week.

I think the biggest problem right now is the perception that guys don't want to play.

And I like your reaction to that and talk a little bit about what everybody refers to as tanking, which seems to be antithetical to the competition.

Yeah, I would say there's at least ten teams tanking in the league right now, maybe more.

There's a tanking team in Cleveland tonight.

Brooklyn.

Somebody earlier asked me if I was going to the game.

I was like, no.

So if the Cavs dont win by 20 tonight, they're in trouble.

People will hear tanking and they say that the players themselves are trying and as Jalen was saying, implies that the players themselves are not trying to win.

Tanking is not done between the four lines.

Tanking is done on the injury report, the key players out, sometimes players.

And this is something that's been come common last couple of years.

Players are traded and then it's like he's hurt.

He's hurt and he's you know it's you know but where there's so much competition for these top picks because that is the way that you can improve your team.

It's just without question.

Like if you brought in a in a in a consultant, if you went to McKinsey or you went to Ernst and Young, whatever, and you hired the number one business consultant in America and paid him $15,000 an hour to analyze your business, the Utah Jazz would be told you should lose every possible game.

You know, the jazz got fined $500,000 last week for tanking.

Because Adam Silver is trying to curb it.

I had an executive tell me yesterday if the first number one pick was for sale in this draft, that they could get $100 million for it.

That's how valuable in basketball a superstar player is.

And they believe there's several in this draft.

There's just last night, a kid from Arkansas scored 48 points.

He's going to be the fifth or sixth pick maybe.

And you know, you look at the jazz.

Here's the thing.

Teams are really, really smart.

And sometimes what you do sometimes smart stuff can lead to losing.

Sometimes it can be the smartest thing you can do.

And I know that's not what you want isn't as a key as a competitor, but that's where teams have gone.

Let me tell you something about the jazz.

They got five.

They got fined $500,000.

Right.

Bad day.

Like boy that didn't work out for them.

No no no no.

They got the last laugh.

And here's why I'm going to go a little bit into the weeds here.

And I'm sorry if I'm going to fly over the heads of certain people, but it's funny.

So the jazz a couple of weeks ago made a trade with the Atlanta Hawks.

They traded for an Australian player again.

I would give you bonus points if you knew who he was, but I'll just say his name is Jock Landale.

Great guy.

He traded for a player from Memphis and within an hour they sold him to Atlanta for $3 million okay.

And it made a little bit of bad news because the player was so excited.

He was going from Memphis to Atlanta.

They didn't even have a flight that could get him there for the morning.

And he hugged his kids, got in his pickup truck because he's all stallion, and he drove across Georgia and Tennessee to make it there for practice in the morning.

What a great story.

And then that night, he scored 26 points in his first game.

He drove through the night and scored 26 points in his first game.

It's a great story again.

They played the Utah Jazz and the jazz got $3 million for trading him from for five minutes and selling him for an hour.

Later, they made $3 million and they got a loss, which is what they wanted.

And we're supposed to think that the $500,000 fine was a deterrent.

That is a squirt gun against a literal tank.

And so, right now they are working in the league office at finding a way to incentivize winning.

Because if you incentivize something in in professional sports, they will do it.

If you want to guarantee the results of something, show me the incentive.

I'll show you the results.

This is a quote from Charlie Munger.

Look him up.

Another talk for a different day.

But it is absolutely true in the NBA.

The lottery system came in in 2000.

In 1983, 83, 84, that was the first change for anti-tank.

They've made five changes to the lottery system since.

That's six when you include this the the the the introduction of it, they induce the play in tournament a couple of years ago where they expanded the playoffs a little bit.

That was the seventh change.

Now they're talking about the eighth change.

So let me just tell you there will be a change and it will not work.

And they'll make another one.

But unfortunately in a game where there's 30 teams, only one can win and there's only really 6 or 7 players that can truly affect the outcome of a championship.

Maybe not a game or a playoff series, but a championship.

There will always be a supply and demand issue, and the supply short, and the demand will force certain teams to do things that they're incentivized to do to get players.

So that is not going to help the Brooklyn Nets fans tonight.

But the Cavs are one of the teams that are in good position.

So I would say pound the nets and move on.

Is a tangential relationship between tanking and another issue that is really affecting all sports, including the NBA.

And that is the effect of legalized gambling.

You can't really watch an NBA game.

And by the way, this is a first.

This is the first NBA discussion since 2022 not sponsored by a gambling outfit.

So I think it's a nice but we have it is certainly there.

And I'd like to have you share some perspective on how the league feels about it.

Is just the ubiquity of it.

Does it cast a shadow on anything?

How should we think about it as fans.

And used to work in the NBA?

By the way, my podcast, Hoop Collective is brought to you by DraftKings.

Used to work in the NBA.

Terry might have even taught me this line I can't remember.

And if I didn't give you I've used this line 100 times.

And if I didn't give you credit, I apologize.

What are you going to do?

Why in the NBA do they play best of seven?

Do you know because they can't get away with best of nine.

And this is the thing you have to understand about the NBA is that at the end of the day, it is a revenue first volume, first business.

You can make the argument that they should play fewer games and that the demand would go up, but they are a revenue first volume, first business.

And so everybody brings me these ideas for how the league could change.

And I go, does it meet the satisfactory thing that it adds revenue?

No.

Thank you for coming.

And so gambling adds revenue is there the potential for there to be some scandals?

Yes.

Well, the NBA, except minor scandals in exchange for the revenue that they get from gambling.

Yes.

Do they try to mitigate it with various levels of protection?

Yes.

Is it a going to get rid of all of it?

No.

So this is the way it is.

I'm a realist.

I live in the real world.

The NBA is that if they only have a scandal every 2 or 3 years, they would never say this sounds good to us.

So they would also point out if Adam Silver was up here, he would point out that they have all of these measures in place that prevent scandals.

And that's true.

But it is a reality of life in America, and it's not going anywhere.

Another reality of life in America, particularly among basketball fans, is complaining about the referees.

But we have a different perspective on this, and I'd like you to share that.

Well, I've had the opportunity to go around the world, and cover events all over the world.

I was in Serbia about a month and a half ago.

Where in Belgrade, where when the refs didn't like they they make the call.

They helicoptered, lighters at the refs.

And I loved every minute of that game, by the way.

They did.

They actually there was a key free throw in the visiting team that was at the foul line, and it was so many laser pointers in the guys eye that they had to they give him a free throw over.

He missed it the first I made the second time.

The refereeing in the NBA is the best in the world.

It's the best we got.

It is imperfect.

It is frustrating.

I invite you to go down to Kent State or Akron and watch a mini American Conference game, and with peace and love tell me that those officials are better.

No offense.

Any of you have any official friends or if you are officials, the officiating is an imperfect science.

I cannot tell you how hard these men and women work on their craft.

You would not believe it.

Not only that, they are judged relentlessly is again an imperfect system.

But I am telling you, as somebody who's gone across the world and watched the officiate across the world, not only is the NBA officiating the best in the world, it is the best by a ton.

And, you know, if you don't believe me, you can just take a look elsewhere.

I mean, especially, you know, you could ask guys Luka Doncic because you think he complains to NBA refs.

Whoa, Nelly, you should see him in a Fiba event where one time I saw him in the Philippines literally get called for a foul, go to half court and curse out the secretary general of Fiba in Spanish.

And moments later he was ejected.

So it's just like an NBA game.

But, so it's not perfect, but trust me, they're working on it and there could be ways to improve it, but is the best we have, and these people are at the top of their profession.

You also mentioned, the issue of time and how things change over time, and how the trade for James Harden affected the timeline and how the Cavs are thinking about this season.

One of the questions we had was, I mean, how does a timeline for a team change like that within a season where maybe you thought you were going to be on the outskirts of the playoffs, or maybe you were in a retooling mode.

You make a move and all of a sudden that timeline changes.

Well, there's there's 30 NBA teams, there's 30 different stories.

As part of my job is to know all of their stories so that I can talk about them.

In the case of the Cavs, they were operating in a world where they thought they were on Evan Mobley's timeline.

They were making decisions that were based on Evan Mobley's timeline, and they kind of came to the realization that they really couldn't be on Evan's timeline.

They had to be ironed out of Mitchell's timeline.

They, I think, believe that Evan would equal Donovan or or C exceed him.

And Evan is played really well, but Donovan's play, he's the best nine.

I don't know how he feels about this.

He's the best non LeBron Cavalier I think.

And so they're like you know he's 30 years old.

He's got one guarantee year left.

We need to change from operating under a 22 year olds timeline to operate under the 30 year old's timeline.

And so they made a trade to to basically focus on what they have with Donovan.

And so I think you will we'll see how this season ends.

You know I can't see the future, but I think you will see them start making decisions that are based on number 45 timeline going forward.

And by the way, I think he appreciates it.

We'll see how the season ends.

It really doesn't it doesn't matter how you feel in February.

It matters how you feel in the end.

Just like it doesn't matter how you're doing in the third quarter, matters how you're doing at the end of the game.

But, you know, they're only in the third quarter of the season.

And, you know, they've got some good momentum and they have a favorable schedule because they play a bunch of tanking teams.

They can get into the top three record wise, which I think is going to be important because these teams are very evenly matched.

And I feel like, they have a great opportunity this year.

There is not a powerhouse in the East that they can overcome.

And even in the West, those teams are starting to look a little bit shaky for various reasons.

So the Cavs can win it this year.

Do I give them a 50% chance?

No, but I give them a better chance now than I did a month ago.

I'd like to close up with the, a couple of questions going back to your career and again, sort of reinforcing the theme of perspective, when you reflect on your career, Brian, is there a defining moment that changed the trajectory of your career and where you've ended up?

Yeah.

When the Bron came back to Cleveland in 2014, I had the opportunity to move back to Cleveland.

Obviously the team was going to be incredible.

And you know, the 2016 run was, you know, historic 10th anniversary this year, even though the team is kind of not trying to talk about that much because they want to focus on this year's team, if it were me, I would have the statue already built.

That would already have changed the name of the streets, but that's another story for another day.

And I decided not to lean into coming back to Cleveland.

Instead, I leaned into doing national stuff and, you know, nowadays I don't spend as much time at games.

I spend more time in the studio, spend more times doing bigger picture stuff.

And I did come to Cleveland many times, and I was with all of those teams heavily.

But, you know, choosing basically to exit the covering LeBron every day business for covering the whole league business.

You know, you, you know, moving away from LeBron was a risk.

But it ended up, I think, working out for me and I, you know, I'm happy that I did it, but it was a big change.

And my colleague Dave McMenamin, you know, he was very close friend and colleague.

He's really been the LeBron expert at ESPN for the last ten, 12 years.

I get credit for it and I'm there a lot.

But he's the guy who's taken over for us.

That was a big decision.

That was made, by the way, Dave loves Cleveland.

He would love to come back if the chance opens itself up.

Another thing that has changed about the NBA is the media that covers it.

When certainly when Terry was covering the league and when you started, it was really newspaper driven, beat writer and columnist driven.

That has really changed.

So given the number of high school students we have in the audience, what advice would you give to someone who's trying to start a career in the sports industry and wants to do what you did?

I make my career talking about around ball going through around ring.

The only reason that anybody cares, that you all care is because it's about the stories.

So what you have to do in this profession is you have to tell stories, whether you tell them with audio, what you tell them with video, whether you tell them with graphics, whether you tell them with stats, whether you tell them on the internet, whether you tell them in print.

It's about storytelling.

It's about identifying the story, telling the story well, and connecting with the audience no matter what medium that you're in, no matter what age group that you're in.

It's all about telling the story.

That's what we look at.

We love great stories.

The 2016 Cavs were one of the greatest stories of my lifetime.

They remain a good story.

I'm still going to tell that story.

And hopefully there'll be another great story that you're working on next.

That's what I spend my whole life doing finding stories.

That's the hard part, in all honesty.

Finding stories and telling them that's what this profession is.

And we've save the hardest question for last Swenson's or Skyway.

And what's your order?

Well, my mother, Mary Lou, she's here.

She is a big Skyway fan, but she raised me on Swenson's said.

I don't know if she transitioned at some point, but I I'm still swensens and I know that LeBron likes the galley boy.

LeBron likes the galley boy.

But I, half pounder with cheese, mustard and ketchup and a mint milkshake.

Brian Windhorst, ladies and gentlemen.

Thank you Terry.

Thank you Ed.

And above all other.

Thank you, Brian Windhorst.

We are incredibly grateful to have you here today.

that's it for our time together.

And we thank you all for being here.

Have a good one.

This has been a production of Akron Roundtable, PBS Western Reserve, the University of Akron, and Ideastream Public Media.