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the owners of the Cleveland Browns want to leave their stadium home of over 25 years for a dome facility 12 miles away, paid for equally by the owners, local government and the state of Ohio will tackle the state part of the plan this weekend.

The state of Ohio.

Just.

Welcome to the state of Ohio.

I'm Karen, counselor.

The owners of the Cleveland Browns want a new domed stadium outside of downtown in Brook Park.

And they say it'll be a part of a $3.4 billion development that will generate $1.2 billion in economic activity each year.

The team wants $600 million in bonds that would be paid back by the state from taxes raised by the project over 30 years, but opposition is mounting based on the state's risk and the specifics of the deal.

This week, both Cleveland Mayor Justin Bibb and Cuyahoga County Executive Chris Ronayne spoke out.

Bibb blasted the Haslam Sports Group for what he called a ploy.

That, quote raises more questions than answers and makes wild assumptions that will crush taxpayers, end quote.

Ronayne said the group's model showed average ticket prices would need to climb to nearly $800 a ticket over 30 years, and that every game and every single parking space would be sold out.

By the way, the team went three and 14 this past year, but all eight home games were sellouts, Rooney notes.

Increases in the hotel and car rental tax are overly optimistic to, and will require changes in state law and Ronayne urged lawmakers to do the kind of analysis they do on other projects before agreeing to this.

One if the state decides on our behalf to fully invest in what was proposed by the House, that the Senate does the same, that's their business.

But there's our business.

And so, yes, part of the message today is also to the state of Ohio is think about that.

Think about it because it's the same risk that you're putting, state taxpayers in Ohio, too, as we are here in Cuyahoga County.

And I'm just not going to put taxpayers in Cuyahoga County under that level of risk.

So if the Haslam Sports Group decides to build a dome stadium in Brook Park without county tax dollars, I still think it's a mistake.

I still think it's a mistake.

But at least we have held the line on not putting our taxpayers at risk Ronen said there is a project that could be done.

The renovation of Huntington Bank field, which was first proposed by the Browns with renderings he said he's seen and described as transformational The doable plan is downtown roughly half the cost of the Brook Park expectation, and that expectation is 50%.

Public expectation.

The Brook Park plan is too risky.

The Haslam Sports Group publicly presented a version of its plan to state lawmakers last week to the members of a committee that's new.

This session, the House Arts, Athletics and Tourism Committee, the 12 page slideshow and three pages of testimony featured colorful renderings, but not many specifics on where they believe the $2.9 billion in Brown's related fiscal impact will come from.

Freshman Republican David Thomas is a member of that committee, and said coming into the presentation, he was skeptical, the pictures of this Dome Stadium project look great.

The idea of a $3.4 billion dome stadium project with all the surrounding development sure sounds exciting.

What do you think of this proposal?

So I at first very against it.

You know, just the idea of using government money for something that the private sector should really be in charge of.

Just philosophically, you know, I had a lot of questions and concerns.

I'm also a Steelers fan, so we'll put that to the side.

Oh, I'm sorry about that.

I know Northeast Ohio.

But once kind of diving into where are the numbers and where would the state ask be coming from?

To me, this actually makes a lot of sense.

So it's the idea that, we're not going to be using general fund money to give to the Browns to build this stadium village complex.

Instead, it would essentially be alone.

It would be paid back and then some.

As a state with not, you know, my fellow Steelers fan tax dollars from Trumbull County.

It'd be the people that went to the stadium, bought a jersey, went and saw Taylor Swift, a concert.

All the sales tax, the income tax that's generated there.

They're actually the ones paying for it.

So it's the perfect kind of user fee aspect to helping to complete the project.

Let's talk a little bit about those numbers.

Governor Mike DeWine has said this is a ton of money.

While it's not a direct check.

It is a ton of money, about $900 million.

The state would be on the hook for overtime over the 30 year span of the bonds.

What if the Browns projections, like you just said, are wrong?

What have you seen in the projections about the breakdown of revenue, income taxes, sales tax and whatever?

That you can say that you're confident that their projections are right.

So one aspect of that is that they already have a model right now, which is the current Browns Stadium.

So if you just keep that kind of flat, assuming that the same type of activity would happen at this new stadium versus the current one, that's a very good baseline.

But we already know just because of the village aspect, the residential, the commercial on top of more seats and a ton more events and opportunities to bring in money that at a very baseline, it's going to be increased quite a bit.

And even if, like you said, let's say the Browns continue not be so good.

Taylor Swift falls out of line.

Whatever happens then there still is actually seed money that the Browns have put up in order to cover that portion of that $38 million in upfront cash.

Yes.

Yep.

So that I mean, that's something right there.

And then we'll see.

Kind of as the economy keeps going.

But, I actually really like this idea just because we know there will still be activity when we know there'll be money coming in.

It's not being taken from other places at the state level.

And so it's it's essentially directly there, isn't it being taken though from downtown Cleveland.

So you know what what Cleveland is and how they kind of work it out.

Still saying in Cuyahoga County, I can tell you from my constituents, it's going to be actually easier for them to get to the stadium than downtown.

I know, talk to folks in Akron, even Columbus.

So I definitely feel for the people in downtown Cleveland right there.

But I've also heard from the proposals of what that could look like, where, you know, investment could be coming from where the current stadium is.

And I think the idea is that you don't want to, you know, decrease any economic activity in Cleveland moving over here.

Why not move it over here but also lift this up, too?

There wasn't a whole lot of information that was given in the presentation that came out before the Ohio House Arts, Athletics and Tourism Committee about where that revenue breakdown would come from.

Breakdown of sales, income, other taxes, whatever.

Ted, Ty wine from the Haslam Sports Group did say a big chunk of the jobs would be hospitality related, which doesn't have a whole lot of money attached to those.

But you ask a very critical question here in that committee meeting is whether take into account the changes that could happen to the income tax.

How does that work in this whole proposal?

Yeah, that that was one of my first questions to the Browns folks.

When I first kind of sat down with them was, hey, you know, we're looking at possibly changing the income tax the last seven budgets of that and some tax cuts.

Now, I'm personally someone that would say that I think we should be focused more on the property tax side than the income tax side, but that's a whole nother conversation, too.

So if we do touch the income tax, yes, that would be a decrease in the, you know, revenue coming directly from that site.

Now, at the same time, the folks that are living there, the people that are working there, there's going to be a variety as well, in addition to the stadium itself.

I think a bulk of the money, frankly, will come from the sales tax side, just given the activity that's happening at the stadium.

Frankly, how expensive things are.

And, the idea of a ton more events, concerts, activities that will happen at the stadium that will largely drive, I think, the sales tax side versus the income tax.

So you think the mix have you seen a breakdown of where the mix comes from, sales, income, anything like that?

I've not seen the exact mix of their estimate, but I know that a bigger portion from the current stadium is a sales tax basis.

As a lawmaker, are you concerned that you haven't seen that breakdown yet?

So that's actually not something I've asked for a specifically.

So that's a great question.

And I'm sure I'm sure they would be able to provide it.

But, that's kind of one of the interesting things too, is we're learning things obviously, as we go.

But the overall aspect of comparing the current tax revenue at the stadium versus something that would be much bigger, you know, I'm pretty confident in those comparisons.

You asked this hearing about your constituents who you've talked about here.

Many of them are Steelers fans, unfortunately.

But I say this is a Browns fan.

If the housing the sports group's projections are wrong, those folks could be on the hook for this.

How do you sell this to these constituents?

Who are not going to be fans of the stadium, the Browns, or going to the stadium to root for the Steelers when the Browns and Steelers are playing?

Yeah, I think that would have to be, which always happens and we can budget for that.

It would have to be a true extreme perfect storm of, frankly, many COVID's many opportunities for there not to be the sales tax revenue happening at the stadium.

And I just don't see that in comparison to the many other stadiums that are around, even compared to the current stadium, there.

But, you know, let's yeah, let's say worst case scenario, nothing is generated from there.

The state bar of this money state has to pay it back.

I have to have a feeling that there will be some type of negotiation between the Haslam Sports Group and the state in terms of.

Yes, we had this agreement, but you didn't live up to your portion of the agreement.

We're going to change some things around.

You were a local official.

You have local officials in your family.

So you know how important local support of something like this would be.

Is there anything in this proposal that says if the local support isn't there, then the bonds won't be sold, that this will this will stop before the bonds go on.

The market in the state is on the hook.

So I've not, seen anything with a specific, you know, like referendum, for example.

I think that's largely because, you know, your average taxpayer across the state won't be actually contributing to this piece unless they attend.

And so once I've explained, kind of walk through the quick, you know, 30 or minute sentence of here's how they're actually funding it.

And here's if you wanted to contribute how you would.

It's almost like crowdfunding.

Then, folks seem to be actually very happy.

This is a much better proposal.

Frankly, I almost call it the best of the worst.

If we're if we're going to do it, let's just say we're going to do it.

How do you fund it?

We all agree, I think at least House Republicans, that the sports betting increase was not good.

We all agree using general fund money.

Not good.

We all agree.

Sales tax increase.

Not good.

And so you're actually taking the money then from the folks who are enjoying the stadium and people by and large I've had very little actual pushback to that concept.

Do you expect that other teams will come if this goes through, that you'll have the Bengals and you'll have other teams that are going to be coming forward saying, hey, we would like to do the same thing with state backed bonds.

Oh, well, I'll be honest, I think this is a super interesting idea from just a economic development perspective.

You know, think of your larger companies coming into Ohio.

And could we do some type of it's almost like tipping the property tax, but instead it's tipping the income and the sales tax.

And there could be other opportunities for just general economic development for this type of mechanism where we're not putting it on the backs of the property owners in the area, but we could actually be a little bit creative and use this for your larger kind of, buildings construction, you know, your conglomerate type things.

I'd be shocked if other sports companies didn't come in and ask for something similar, but the issue with that would be, of course, it's a tiff.

And so you're only looking at the increased value or in this case, the increased sales tax, the increased, income tax from whatever's happening.

So if the Bengals were to come in and say we want the same deal, they're going to have to do something to bring more economic activity to their stadium, which is the whole point.

So more activity, more happening there, more investment, more of a tax return, more going towards that.

And it's safe to say you're a no.

Then on the governor's proposed doubling of his tax on sports gambling operators to fund a sports facilities project fund.

Yes, that's that's dead on arrival, cause you don't want to increase the tax on these sports gambling operators.

Correct.

So the doubling of the tax puts us at number two in the nation for how high that sports betting taxes.

And there's some issues with that.

The biggest one being one that gets paid for somewhere.

And so it gets paid for through the folks who are gambling.

They have decreased odds.

They also will have less, in their accounts to then sponsor and support different teams all across the state too.

So that gets decreased as well.

And then you also have the issue, I think, of the black market folks who are, I don't but, who are out there and who could become much more prevalent, which means we lose even more tax revenue, if the bigger folks have much of the higher tax burden.

And finally, there are people who are critical of this plan saying it's just a cash grab for the houses.

How do you push back on that?

Well, I would say, but for this plan, what's what's the alternative?

So they're putting in they can use their own money.

Well, they could, but I think they're putting in, I can't remember exactly the number 1.2 billion, 1.2 billion.

I was going to say 2.1, so I flipped it.

So 1.2 billion, which is already quite a bit of their own funds.

And yes, they could just like, frankly, Intel could have used their own money or all these different companies that are coming to Ohio.

I think one of the reasons they are in the Haslam is are willing to put in all this, all this amount.

There's there's backing from the state, their support there.

And I think the benefit that we're going to see from this overarching plan will not just be for Clevelander, Cuyahoga County, but will be for the entire state.

Also on that committee is Democrat Terrance Upchurch, whose district includes Huntington Bank field.

And Jimmy and Haslam are also his constituents.

I asked him about Bibbs statement, in which he also said the project would squander taxpayer dollars and is openly violating state law, that the Haslam refusal to release their plan publicly is an affront to taxpayers.

Well, first of all, I appreciate, the mayor standing strong and for his leadership on this.

And I'm going to remain in lockstep with the mayor, which is making sure that, the Browns remain in the city of Cleveland and that, what is best for the Cleveland taxpayers is done.

Now, in terms of the, $600 million question.

Listen, there are so many issues right now impacting the state of Ohio that I think, the legislature should, prioritize ahead, you know, of, of this talk of a funding a new stadium.

There's just so many other things that I think need to be discussed that are more urgent than, the Browns question.

Let me ask you, quoting again from Mayor Bibbs statement, the Haslam scheme pays for itself on the backs of fans.

The hassles need to raise your taxes, make it more expensive for you to attend games and steal events away from downtown Cleveland to pay for their stadium.

I'm asking you about this because in this hearing, you mentioned that Huntington Bank field is in your district.

The Haslam are your constituents, right?

You ask Ted Taiwan of a housing sports group about the impact on fans and noting that a lot of your constituents struggle to afford games if they can go at all.

That's right.

Were you satisfied with the answer you got?

Listen, I think I think Ted answered the question the best he could with the information that he had.

Right.

And, you know, I do believe that the Browns feel, sincere, that they are providing an experience for, for fans of, different financial backgrounds.

Right.

But at the same time, like I said, my constituents, many of my constituents who are Browns fans, who want to take their kids to those games on Sunday, you know, not only struggle to afford tickets, but struggle for concessions.

And like I said, I got to imagine with building such a, expensive stadium like this that, you know, the price of tickets and the prices of concessions would be impacted.

And my concern is how that impact is going to look or how that impact is going to be felt on my constituents, who are still, again, going to those games, whether they're on the lakefront or, God forbid, in Brook Park.

And you know, when you ask that question of Ted Taiwan, he did say that there will be 2500 standing room only seats offered, but he did not mention that there would be any lower ticket prices or any more available tickets in a lower price point.

Yeah, so so with that, obviously there's a ton of concerns I have, right?

Because even still, if, you know, if I'm working hard to, to afford, a ticket to a game at this new stadium, the best that that can be done is standing.

So I got to stand for four hours with my grandfather.

And, you know, I have knee issues or back issues or whatever.

So that's what you're telling me.

You know, I just I think there's a lot of things that, can be addressed.

There's a lot of unanswered questions.

And, you know, this is one of those unanswered questions.

You know, Ted, tell long is a very good friend of mine.

Okay.

He's got a job to do.

I respect that.

We'll still be friends after this.

But, there's more that I need to see.

And that.

And there's more that's need that needs to be done to convince me, that this is the right move.

Speaking of that, there were some financial projections that were offered, and there were the questions.

Ask them, where is the revenue that's going to pay back the state for these bonds?

Where is it going to come from?

Are you concerned?

You know, ticket prices, income taxes, sales taxes?

I mean, do you have a real sense of where that money that is going to be generated to pay the state back is coming from?

I'm absolutely concerned about it.

And I'm even more concerned that the state is still going to be left on the hook.

Right.

Like I said, there's a there's a lot of unanswered questions and a lot of concerns that I have about this particular decision.

And, you know, I think that this is something that we don't need to, fast track.

You know, I would love for the Browns to go back and continue to talk, you know, with Mayor Bibb and County Executive Chris Roney.

Right.

But I, I'm just not in a place to support, you know, the $600 million bonds.

I'm just not there yet.

Do you get the sense that this is on a fast track?

I mean, you heard the presentation.

There's been talk about putting it in the budget and maybe even removing the sports facilities fund that, governor Mike Weiner proposed.

It's hard to tell.

It's hard to tell whether that this is, high priority for the leadership, in the House.

In the Senate?

It's hard to tell.

This is being fast tracked.

But it does seem as if the wheels of this, it does seem as if this train has left the station right now.

How far down the track it is.

You know, that's yet to be seen.

You also asking that committee hearing about infrastructure costs, which the Haslam Sports Group says should be 57 to $73 million.

But that's not included in this, is it?

I mean, that wouldn't be money that they would potentially have to come back and ask for.

That's right.

Which I think, you know, leads us down another rabbit hole, right.

Because again, I don't want surrounding areas and, you know, other local governments to be left on the hook for these infrastructure costs that we know are going to, you know, build every brown fan over a certain age remembers the shot in the heart.

It was when the team left Cleveland for Baltimore.

Sure.

The desire to keep the Browns in Northeast Ohio burns very strongly.

And most Browns fans, and then a lot of Ohioans in general, this has in sports group said in this committee hearing that the Haslam will never leave Northeast Ohio.

Do you think the state are you concerned about the state not holding them to that if this bond package goes through?

I am concerned.

And, you know, this is one of the things that I worry about being the, rock that goes into the pond, that causes a ripple.

Right?

Because we have more than just the three major sports teams in Cleveland.

We have major sports teams that are all throughout the state.

And if we're setting this kind of precedent, it's just a matter of time before another sports team comes to the table.

And we have to make tough decisions and choose between, funding these sorts of projects or funding public schools.

One of the other questions that was asked at the hearing by ranking member Dante Fitzgerald was about the move, the shift of economic impact from downtown, where you represent, to Brook Park and the project asking the question, will the project generate anything new, or will it just be taking things from the downtown area and to Taiwan side?

It's that cannibalization, as he called it.

It would be disrespectful to what's happening in downtown Cleveland to assume that that would happen.

Great things are happening in downtown.

This will be another great thing.

Why?

Why don't you believe that this would?

Or do you believe that this would be another great thing?

Listen, I, I, take Ted for his word that the the Haslam sports group and the Browns are not interested in decimating downtown or negatively impacting downtown by this move.

My concern is that even though that that's not what their intentions are, that it it may just happen.

Because at the end of the day, we're not just talking about a stadium that they're looking to build.

I mean, it's a whole ecosystem around that stadium with hotels, bars, restaurants, all the amenities and things that, you know, we have downtown that we as a city are proud of for sports fans essentially will be built outside of Cleveland.

And I think that will drive competition, which could be detrimental to, you know, downtown Cleveland cause, you know, the same type of, situation is generated with, you know, Cavs games or Guardians games.

You know, people utilize our downtown restaurants, our bars, our hotels, all the things that we as a city have provided to enhance the fan experience.

The pictures that have come out of the project look really great.

They're beautiful.

They're absolutely beautiful.

The stadiums beautiful, everything.

I love everything I've seen, so it's easy to get excited.

It's very easy to get excited.

I love it.

I just don't want it in Brook Park.

I want it in Cleveland and I don't think I'm wrong for that.

I know how valuable, you know, our sports teams are to our city, their economic driver, which help us invest back into our communities and our people.

But the reality is, is if this thing goes through, there's going to be more impact on the city.

Again, the city is going to be faced to do more with less and make some tough decisions.

I mean, just look at the budget.

I'm sure there's going to be more cuts to local government funding.

So yet again, you know, they're going to be faced to do more with less.

And Cleveland is a city built for a million plus people.

We have a population just slightly north of 300,000.

Would you support a project like this or a bond package like this for downtown for renovation of existing stadium, or is that completely off the table?

I would support.

I would support renovation or investment for a project downtown.

Do you think that's a possibility at this point?

I hope it still is.

I have to do my job to to make sure that that's still a possibility.

And that and I'm going to do my job to stay in lockstep with the mayor and the county executive.

We've been in constant communication, and my job is to advocate for them down here in Columbus.

Governor Mike DeWine is not saying directly that he's opposed or supportive of the bond package, but he did say he has serious concerns.

that bond of 600 million that would generate 600 million will cost over $900 million.

Every penny of that will come out general fund dollars in the future to pay the bond down.

That is a ton of money to be taken out of our budget.

That we need to spend money on schools, that we need to spend money, on, mental health challenges.

We have a lot of things that we, we need to focus on in this state.

House Republicans have not released their version of the budget, but it's unlikely that DeWine's proposed tax increases on cigarets, marijuana and sports gambling operators will be included.

It's also unclear whether the bond package will be added to the budget, either.

And that is it for this week for my colleagues at the Statehouse News Bureau of Ohio Public Media.

Thanks for watching.

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Thanks for watching, and please join us again next time for the state of Ohio.

Just.

Support for the Statehouse News Bureau comes from Medical Mutual, dedicated to the health and well-being of Ohioans, offering health insurance plans, as well as dental, vision and wellness programs to help people achieve their goals and remain healthy.

More at Med mutual.com.

The law offices of Porter, right, Morris and Arthur LLP.

Porter Wright is dedicated to bringing inspired legal outcomes to the Ohio business community.

More at porterwright.com.

Porter Wright inspired Every day in Ohio Education Association, representing 120,000 educators who are united in their mission to create the excellent public schools.

Every child deserves more at OHEA.org.