Production and distribution of city club forums and ideastream public media are made possible by PNC and the United Black, Fond of Greater Cleveland, Inc.. Good afternoon.

Welcome to the City Club of Cleveland, where we are devoted to conversations of consequence that help democracy thrive.

Today's Friday, November 22nd.

I'm Dan Martha and the chief executive here, and I'm moderating our forum today, which is the David Ralph Hertz Memorial Forum on Civil Liberties.

Ten years ago today, a 12 year old boy playing outside the Goodell recreation center on Cleveland's West Side was shot and killed by a police officer.

Many in this community know this story very well.

But I was reminded this week that not everyone does.

So I'm going to remind us all for a second.

Tamir Rice was in the gazebo outside the rec center playing with a toy gun.

Someone called the police and told the dispatcher that someone, probably a juvenile, was pointing a pistol at random people outside the rec center.

The caller also said told the dispatcher that the pistol was probably fake.

Both of those critical pieces of information that he was probably a juvenile and the gun was probably fake, were not shared with the police who were responding.

And those officers drove across the grass all the way up to the gazebo.

One officer jumped out of the car before it had come to a stop, and within 2 seconds he had fired two shots.

One of those shots hit Tamir Rice in the torso, and he died the following day.

He was 12 years and five months old.

There was a lengthy review of the shooting, as is common when police officers kill community members.

In the end, neither of the officers was charged with any crime, which is also common in such cases.

I think that many of us remember that Tamir's death felt like a wake up call for the community about the damaged and fractured relationship between the police and the communities they serve.

It happened while the city was beginning a police reform initiative as part of the consent decree with the Justice Department, with the U.S. Justice Department, a consent decree which is still in place today because the division of police is not yet in compliance.

There have been additional efforts at police reform in the ensuing years, including issue 24 and 2021, the creation of mental health care responders to correspond to two calls empathy training for police, which we actually discussed on the city Club stage about two years ago.

But we're here today to pause and examine for just an hour, just one hour the impact of this tragedy on the community.

We're very fortunate to have with us Samaria Rice, Tamir Rice's mother.

She's the founder and CEO of the Tamir Rice Foundation and the founder of the Tamir Rice Afrocentric Cultural Center on St Clair Avenue.

With us, as well as the LaTonya Goldsby president of Black Lives Matter Cleveland.

And she's also Tamir's cousin.

And Subodh Chandra.

He's founder and managing partner of the Chandra Law firm.

Sabo has worked with the family since 2014.

If you have a question for our speakers, if you're listening on the radio or watching the live streaming, you like to text a question.

Then you can text it to 3305415794.

And our team will work it into the program.

And so let's start on what's what may be a difficult conversation, but it's a necessary conversation.

I'm so grateful to all of you for being a part of it today.

Thank you.

So, Mary, I want to start with you, and I want to ask you just to remind us who Tamir was as a boy.

Yes.

He was a 12 year old little black boy.

He had just turned 12, only been 12 for five months.

And he was a very loving child, very affectionate child and a funny child.

He loved to make jokes and do all type of things little kids like to do.

Um, was there one thing he did that made you crazy?

Um, not really.

He just.

He was a helper.

Um, I just know that I put a lot of nourishing to him at a very young age.

So even at 11 and 12 years old, he was still watching the big Red Dog.

And Curious George and things like that.

Still playing with Legos and trucks, you know, on top of transitioning to almost a pre-teen from video games to drawing because he was part of the art, um, the art art program over at Cornell.

So he was able to be over there to express himself, to draw and participate what activities they had over there.

Um, he was really a good kid, very athletic, um, loves soccer, love skateboarding, liked to play basketball.

Mm hmm.

So he was a energetic.

Q But he was an all-American kid.

I could say he had a chance to get exposed to a lot of great things.

I put around.

You know, it's great.

But, Tony, what do you remember about your cousin?

Wow.

I remember Tamir being very active.

He was definitely a joker, liked to laugh and crack jokes a lot.

He was very much a mama's boy.

He loved his mom.

Yeah, I remember him just being very active, you know, always running around the house with the kids.

Tamir and my daughter are seven days apart, so our family was very close.

So, Mario, could you talk a little bit about the work of the Tamir Rice Foundation and the Cultural Center?

So, yes, I wanted to give back to the community.

Um, with the Tamir Rice Afrocentric Culture Center.

Those are some things that I implemented in my children Life is mentoring and counseling and tutoring and the music and arts and things like that.

I wanted to give back to the community with some of those programs and just allow the children of Cleveland to grow and have their own ability and experiences and develop their own skills.

Um, so that's the reason why I developed the Tamir Rice Afrocentric Culture Center to give back to the children at Cleveland.

Is it going well?

It is.

It is.

It's a slow process.

It started starting.

Starting.

Things can be very slow sometimes.

Yeah.

It's been a slow, long process.

But I do want to complete my project and I want to be able to nourish the children in Cleveland because I have so much nourishing and still have a lot of nourishment to do, trying to make a safe place for the children to be.

I want to come back to that, to the work there in in a little bit.

But it's about Chandra.

I want to bring you into this conversation.

Tamir was killed in November 22nd, 2014, two years after Timothy Russell and Melissa Williams were killed by police officers.

A couple of weeks after Tanisha Anderson was killed by police officers.

Those tragedies were became sort of emblematic of the broken relationship between police and the communities they serve.

And I wonder if you can talk about the work that has been done that began shortly after those those moments that began really with the consent decree that was already in place.

And what kind of progress you think has been made to repairing that fractured relationship?

The there have been a number of different issues, both nationally and locally.

But let's focus on locally.

You have the consent decree which tried to implement policy and procedure reforms, and that's still ongoing.

It's been a slow process.

It's been one in which the city of Cleveland has missed many requirements and benchmarks.

And so the the consent decree continues.

You see better written policies and procedures.

What's unknown is whether those written policies and procedures are actually being enforced on the ground.

Police accountability still remains a dubious proposition locally, when officers do act improperly, particularly against private citizens.

Is there real, meaningful, accountable?

Is the arbitration system broken where arbitrators who don't even live in town, you know, reverse any discipline?

Are the officers properly being disciplined?

You have this new community police commission that has a lot more authority of civilian oversight over the police, and yet that appears to be deeply dysfunctional right now, in part because of its own internal dysfunction and in part because of a lack of strong city leadership, ensuring that we dot every eye and cross every T and we actually do the things that they're supposed to do.

Like, for example, keeping what are called Brady files on officers who have a dubious history and problem, they were supposed to do that and they're still not doing it.

So we have a long way to go, and I think we're talking about a full generation that will be required to implement reforms.

This is not something you can do in three years or five years or even ten years.

It requires an entire generation, 25, 30 years of having a full turnover in cycle in police personnel so that you are really able to create a truly new culture of accountability.

And it's the cultural shift.

You can have new policies and procedures in writing all you want, but until there's a cultural shift and there's meaningful systems of accountability in place that people are buying into, you're not going to have real change.

Do you see any indications that even green shoots of a cultural shift or is happening?

Not really.

Not yet.

The tone you goldsby, from your point of view, as an advocate leader in the Black Lives, in the movement for Black Lives.

Do you see do you agree with Sabo?

Do you do you feel that there?

How do you feel about any progress that's been made?

I definitely agree with Sabo.

What we've been seeing is, you know, the normal pushback for against reform and reform efforts.

And so that looks like, you know, police not showing up in our community when we need help.

That looks like slow, slow police responses to 911 calls.

That looks like massive resignations taking place.

That looks like officers quitting the job because they don't want to be held accountable.

And so we've been seeing that not just here in Cleveland, but across the country where officer has been, you know, going to different cities or municipalities to get employment with cities that don't have consent decrees or they don't have oversight boards.

And so there is still work that needs to be done to hold officers accountable.

I mean, look at the recycling of officer loans.

For example, the officer who shot and killed Tamir Rice, he keeps popping up in different communities in the state and around the country until, you know, suddenly there's a local community outcry when they figure out who he is.

But think about that then knucklehead of decision making it takes for public officials to just keep rehiring him.

I mean, it shows you there's a sort of a broken, systemic cultural problem, not just locally, but nationally.

When somebody like him, they think it's okay, well, fine, let's give him another chance.

What are you talking about?

He killed a child.

He fired immediately.

He lied about he lied on his application, put aside the killing.

He lied on his application to become a Cleveland police officer.

That's ultimately why he was drummed out from the department, not because he killed a child.

And yet there are authorities around the country who say, Sounds good to me, Sign him up.

Summary I've heard you say on the radio on WKYC earlier this week that you feel like part of your role now is when Timothy went off, when Timothy Loehmann applies for a job in another community, you've got to speak up once again.

Yes, I have to speak up and speak out and just let the community know that he is not a good choice.

And basically just working with some of my team that we're able to call and make those calls now to the city hall or the police department to let them know who he is.

And we have done because I'm sure he has not told anybody.

So I do feel it's my job to be responsive and to keep Tamir's legacy alive.

You know, he I don't think he understands that he's connected to Tamir forever.

His name.

And that's the horrible thing for me is that when he does surface again, I do have to be the one to stand up and it's retraumatizing and so in thinking about the role that you are in, a role that you didn't choose, oh, I have noticed that you have not ever given up.

Oh, I haven't.

I'm hopeful that this system will change.

I don't want to have to be like the Emmett Till family away.

80 years to get justice.

What would justice look like?

Accountability.

Indictment.

Conviction for both officers.

We don't want to let Frank back get away with it either.

He was the older officer in the car.

He was the trainer in the car.

And it's just as much as his four.

Is Timothy Loehmann being unfit a person to be a part of a police department beyond the specific indictments that you've just mentioned?

More broadly speaking, what does justice look like?

A conviction for me, a conviction for.

But beyond that, I mean, in terms of the systems.

Oh, what do you mean?

I mean, like for like, what would a a police department that operates in a jail more just Cleveland would actually look like?

Like how would that.

Oh, that's going to take a lot of work.

That's going to take a lot a lot of work, because thanks to an individual, we was able to get the one year report and apparently they've been corrupt for 100 years.

I'd like to know when is it going to stop?

I don't know what report you're referring to.

If it's a 100 page report out on corruption of police policing in Cuyahoga County, particularly Cleveland, the push back to want to do the right thing and be accountable for what they have done.

I don't understand how they think that we're going to be able to be, you know, that family.

There's no accountability across the board.

Like how are we going to be able to trust the police if there's no accountability across the board?

That leaves us with no help.

That leaves people like me.

And my goal is be on the front line demanding justice and accountability.

And that is a lot.

That's a lot.

Ms.. GOOLSBEE.

Is there more justice today with with organizations like the CPC, the Community Police Commission, with the Office of Professional Standards?

Do you see that there are.

Does it feel to you that we are any closer?

I think with the right people in place, we could be a lot closer than we are.

I feel like the ways in which the internal sabotage has taken place around issue 24 is something that the entire community should be alarmed about because it jeopardizes the safety of everyone in this room, your children.

And I definitely feel like there needs to be more engagement around that.

When you say internal sabotage, what do you mean?

So putting people in places of positions that don't really support accountability or people that don't believe that the police officers have ever done anything wrong, putting those folks in place to maintain the status quo, to make decisions for, you know, our lives and situations, you know, they should be held accountable for it.

So.

Oh, yeah.

And I would I would add that that your report and that summary I talked about was actually created by our Community Police Commission.

And they did the research on that and realized that there was a pattern of practice over the last hundred years that the mayors of this city tried to get control of our police department.

And it speaks about the the demands for from the citizens for oversight of how they want to oversight of their police department.

And so that along with that and the advocacy that we've been doing around police accountability is what helped us push for issue 24.

This is about Chandra.

You advocated for issue 24.

You've sat on the city club stage during the Issue 24 debate to offer a case in support of it.

And you also wrote much of the legislation talk about how much has been implemented successfully and how much work needs to be done.

Virtually nothing has been done to implement the charter reform amendments.

Virtually nothing.

And I think many of the people in this room may be very surprised to hear that the current mayor ran on this issue.

He won by the same margins as the issue.

He took a political risk by doing so.

It was a bold one.

It was the right move.

But then after assuming office, unfortunately, he and the law department have done everything they can.

It seems effectively, whether it's intentional or not, I can't speak to to undermine implementation of the actual degree.

Why that happened, why there was a complete turnaround, I don't know.

They have no input, Jack.

So there's no they have not reached out.

They don't ask for input.

They don't ask or.

Who do you think should be appointed?

And I'm not saying that as a matter of personal ego, don't just reach out to me.

I mean, reach out to some Ray Rice.

Reach out to Ms.. Goldsby, who's been an activist.

They're very knowledgeable about who the good folks would be that that could come in and really help make solid, accountable changes in the ballot.

But in their approach, there's been a real effort with the kind of appointees, with the infighting that's going on now on the commission.

It's almost by design to let it fail.

And if you look at the actual charter amendment, what's enumerated there are very specific things the commission was supposed to be doing is supposed to be doing that they're not doing.

I gave you one example.

They're supposed to be gathering so-called Brady information, information about individual police officers that would bring into question their integrity like they've lied under oath or something along those lines.

They're supposed to be gathering those.

They're supposed to be maintaining central files.

This was supposed to be civilian police oversight.

Now, because we couldn't rely on the chief of police to do the job.

They're not doing that now.

They're not even signing off on all of the policies and procedures that the police themselves are developing and developing and implementing.

They're supposed to be doing that they are in charge of the policies and procedures.

Another great example that you can point right to the mayor, if there's a requirement that there be a civil rights lawyer with that background.

I did not want the job, by the way, appointed to that commission as a member to help be a part of the conversation about reforms.

They didn't do that.

They literally refused to do that.

So so it is they're doing everything they can to undermine it.

It's really unfortunate for the community because this really could work.

Having this civilian oversight with the chief and the safety director having certain authority and civilians overseeing everything is what the community wanted.

I mean, we we're supposed to be a civilian controlled government, right?

So it's really unfortunate.

And I think people need to be concerned and alarmed and they need to demand accountability from the city council members.

They need to demand accountability from the mayor.

They need to say we we want to know what you've done and what you haven't done.

We want to know why you have appointed people who aren't even, you know, who not fulfilled every requirement here.

What's the timeline, what you know, when are you going to have this implemented?

So it's it's of deep concern.

It's I'm not wouldn't say I'm filled with despair over it.

But what I'm saying is that we need different leadership.

We need different leadership and a different attitude from our current leadership.

And let's keep in mind that the president of city council was opposed to the implementation to begin with.

Right.

So so if you look at where people were even on the issue, they were on the wrong side of the issue.

The mayor was on the right side of the issue.

But then when he came in, he didn't start in the Tony Goldsby from the point of view of Black Lives Matter and the broader national conversation.

Are you seeing any other communities where successful police reform is happening nationally now?

Um, I think that what we have been seeing is little pieces of success as it relates to accountability.

As you'll see in some states where there have been officers held accountable who have gone to trial and been convicted.

But across the board.

No.

And I think that speaks to the fact that we don't have federal legislation in place to hold officers accountable.

So, Mary Rice, I want to return to the the Center for a Cultural Center for a second.

And the foundation a little over a year ago, there were news reports where you were suggesting that you were going to leave Cleveland, that you were going to take it to Chicago.

I was.

What happened?

Well, because I just believe people don't think I know what I'm doing.

And I have invested my own money into this.

So when I'm coming to these local organizations, I'm not getting supported the way I should be getting supported.

So that's kind of where I had to draw the line and say, hey, well, if no one's going to support me here, maybe I should go to Chicago where the gazebo is right now.

And I said to myself, Oh, probably in about a year or so ago or maybe earlier this year, I said, You know what?

I'm going to finish my project and whatever God wants me to have, I'll just make do with it and continue to keep fundraising and getting support wherever I can, because I can't understand why Cleveland is not supporting me.

I don't understand why.

And I am the mother of Tamir Rice and I don't owe anybody anything.

I just want to do the work.

Did you find after those news reports came out and after you were public about the frustrations that you were experiencing that more support emerged?

Or have you persisted in spite of that?

Yeah.

No, not really.

Not more support.

Support.

Haven't marched towards me.

I just.

I don't.

I don't know.

Cleveland is just reluctant to change and they're reluctant to help grassroot organizations.

And I just don't know why.

You know, I didn't get in this to be a politician.

I'm a mom and I'm a nurturing mother.

I have four high school graduates.

I have a formula that could get our children out of school into the next level.

That's that's what I do.

I'm a mom.

Yeah.

So it was the Tamir Rice Afrocentric torture center.

Let me just clear some things that we do.

Recommendations for counseling, but we offer mentoring, tutoring, expression, arts, creative writing.

I have a black box theater in the back of my building where I want the kids to come in and write their plays and work with one of my good friends, Mr. Spivey, in helping direct the plays.

So I've been doing this work.

My children benefited from afterschool programing when it was available in Cleveland.

My children benefit from being part of a community.

There was a mentoring.

They were part of a community with the arts and all type of things.

So I know once you invest in your children, you get a result that you're looking for.

Most of the time I didn't pick to be here.

I'm a chosen one.

I was chosen.

So I just continue to nourish my children and try to nourish the community and hope that people will get on board with that and want to see the vision come alive.

How many children are you serving right now?

Well, I mean, I do events over the community, so it just depends on what event we have.

We probably do service, probably over a hundred children maybe so far.

I know I was working with R.G.

Jones.

Tamir was a soccer player over at RG Jones.

I was able to give 12 families $100 a piece for their Christmas.

I made their Thanksgiving holiday last year.

We do a lot of we do some workshops in the community, like a flower workshop or artist workshop, and then we did a self-care day in the community for the children.

I was able to get kids hair done, manicures, things like that for children.

So I'm always working with the kids.

I'm a mother of three, a grandmother of five, so I stay busy.

I stay busy and it's just really about investing in your community and your children.

Thank you for sharing that.

Absolutely.

I know that our.

Sure.

Go ahead.

I'm I know that our audience both here and and on the radio and online all have questions.

So we're going to move to that in a moment.

My name is Dan Waltrip.

Just to reset a little bit here, I'm chief executive and we are talking with Samaria Rice.

She is, of course, Tamir Rice's mother and also the founder and CEO of the Tamir Rice Foundation.

With us, as well as Goldsby, president of Black Lives Matter Cleveland, and also Tamir Rice's cousin, and Subodh Chandra, founding and managing partner of the Chandra Law firm.

Questions We welcome questions from everyone City club members, guests and those of you joining us via the livestream at City Club dot org or live radio broadcast on 89.7 Ideastream Public Media, WKSU.

If you'd like to text a question for our speakers, you can text it to 3305415794.

The number again is 3305415794 and we will work it into the program.

I think we have our first question.

Thank you.

Michael Dover, the longtime Sierra Club member.

LaTonya has spoken in the past both.

I've heard her at a rally and also on the idea stream the other day about hope.

The Cleveland community Police Commission could produce what she calls transformative reforms.

But other advocates have called for various kinds of abolition.

This becomes a big issue.

What does that really mean?

Now, I may have all my not all my facts straight, but as I recall, Camden, New Jersey, used what I call the nuclear option, where they dismantled the whole city force and turned it over to a new county formation which recognizes that crime does not respect the boundaries between cities and villages.

And maybe we need to change the culture by changing the structure entirely.

And I'm wondering what you feel about a more fundamental tile way of of achieving transformative reform and policing in our in our area.

Thank you.

Thank you, Michael.

Yeah.

So for me, I think in-town titles divesting from policing and investing in alternatives to policing that looks like non-police responses.

And so excuse me.

And so having a a transformative change in the culture is reflective in the community.

And we're not saying that right now.

We're not seeing it transition from trainings and those particular services that they go through is not resonating within the community.

We're still seeing the same policing that we've seen from 400 years ago, and that speaks to the resistance in black communities when it comes to policing, because we know what that looks like for us.

We've been there.

We felt it, and we're still feeling the residuals from that structure of policing in our communities today.

And so I definitely believe in abolishing policing one step at a time by divesting from policing and investing in and community services that really help people and meet them where they are.

SEBOLD Would you like to weigh in on the more radical reform of Camden, New Jersey?

Not particularly.

But I want to just take a step back, though, and think about it.

Since we're commemorating the passing of Tamir Rice today.

I think it might be helpful as we think about the reforms that are needed to just be reminded about what are some of the things that went wrong in the systemic response to Tamir Rice's killing?

And first and foremost, for Samara Rice, I mean, she's already articulated that she still to this day wants to see a prosecution and of the officers.

The first and foremost problem, to my mind was that the Rice family was cheated out of the fair criminal justice process for accountability.

I'm not suggesting or insisting that there definitely would have been a conviction of Officer Loehmann and or Officer Gamache.

I'm not saying that at all.

But what I'm saying is that the playing field wasn't level for the family going into that situation as people who are saying they were crime victims.

And then let's use the example of Officer Loehmann.

The shooter was the target of a criminal investigation where there was a supposed grand jury investigation going on.

There were so many red flags that occurred there that I need the audience that's listening and watching to understand.

This is not how any normal target of criminal investigation would be treated.

They were given coddling and special treatment.

How do we know that?

We know that because the news came out at the time For the biggest example was when Loehmann and Garner back were given the opportunity to come before the grand jury, take the solemn oath to tell the truth and read self-serving, pre-written statements and face no cross-exam lamination and walk out.

Now, first of all, every criminal defense lawyer, every prosecutor knows you never send your client into the grand jury.

I've got a criminal former criminal defense lawyer friend who's chuckling over here.

You would never send your lamb in for slaughter, right?

Because it's a one sided proceeding.

And so the only reason that the police union and those lawyers would have sent those officers in is if they knew the fix was in.

And there's a Supreme Court case.

Brown v United States, 1958.

Take a look at it.

It says that once you've taken the solemn oath, you're subject to cross-examination.

You don't get to put the Fifth Amendment genie back in the bottle and say, I'm now giving this statement.

I invoke the Fifth and leave.

No, no, no.

Now you're subject to cross-examination to get the truth.

And so that special treatment, I can assure you, has never been afforded any suspect of burglary, rape, arson, murder in this area.

It's only if you're a Cleveland police officer that you get that kind of special treatment.

So that's one of the dozen examples I can give of There were just these anomalies.

I mean, we had experts who went in before the grand jury.

Their reports hadn't been given to the grand jury, came out and said one of the assistant prosecutors pointed the airsoft pistol at his face and said, what do you think about this?

This was shocking stuff.

And the grand jury was being used as a fig leaf to try to persuade the community we're doing a fair process when what was happening was special treatment to be able to prepare the public for an exoneration is what the prosecutor's intentions were.

Prosecutors always, if they really are interested in pursuing a case, they ask the grand jury to indict.

They didn't just go, It's up to you.

You know, gee, it's up to them.

This is what they told us.

That was a red flag.

So so as long as people understand that there is one system of justice for them and there's a system of justice for the rest of us, if we're prepared to accept that.

Okay.

And let's accept that.

I'm not prepared to accept that.

And I don't think anybody else should be.

There should be one system of justice for all.

And it is Dan, it is the thing that continues to burn, in my gut about this case was the that that there was an equal justice under law in the way this was handled.

Samir Rice and her family were never given a fair shot at the one piece of accountability they wanted.

So if we want change, we have to we have to know whether we have a different system of justice now.

And we don't.

Because Mike O'Malley, solution to that, after beating Tim McGinty in the primary when all of this came out, his solution was, I'm not going to do those cases at all.

I'm just going to send them to the most conservative prosecutors in the world and outsource them.

And I can avoid accountability altogether.

I'll send them to the Geoghan County prosecutor.

I'll send with the Ohio attorney general.

We all know what's going happen then so there can never be accountability for a Cuyahoga County prosecutor for refusing to do the job.

They're never going to get in trouble again.

And it was a slick move, but it was a way of basically removing all political accountability for for the public's ability.

This should concern everyone.

We should have a prosecutor who's willing to do the job, who's willing to, you know, put on the big boy pants or big girl skirts or whatever outfit is needed to take responsibility and say, this is my job and you can hold me accountable if you think I made the wrong decision.

Is this essentially is this essentially because of the perceived power of the of law enforcement and the unions that represent law enforcement officers?

I can't speak to the motives.

What I can tell you is that the assistant prosecutor who was in on these shenanigans in the Netflix documentary, Mary 137 shots made by former Clevelander Mike Milano, which I commend to you.

It's on Netflix, 137 shots.

He was interviewed about this and he basically all but admitted, I'm going to do what I need to do to protect the cops.

I'm paraphrasing, but that was a shocking moment in that documentary where he was admitting to this implicit bias.

And to be fair, I don't think they believe that it's wrong.

You know, I don't think they are able to step back and recognize that they've got this at a minimum, subconscious bias.

So you have to be willing to step back and say, okay, if we're going to have a real police accountability case, we need to treat these suspects.

The same way we would everybody else.

Maybe that means we we give this to a former civil rights prosecutor who's prosecuted cops to be the one to do it.

But no, we don't sit there and kind of figure out a ways to lean on the scales of justice for one side and treat these people differently than we would any other suspect.

Thank you.

Go ahead.

what would you say to other families who have went through a similar experience that you have?

Yeah.

Somalia.

Yeah.

Has to do this all the time.

Yeah.

Well, I will say the.

To make sure that you can, um.

Had a strength to go.

Number one, you got to had a strength and make sure you had the right people around you because unfortunately, the right people don't come around you.

And it all depends on the situation.

Tamyra was explore today, and that's why we were able to get the national coverage.

You know what I'm saying?

So it came with a lot of support.

So if you don't have that coverage, I will suggest that you stand out, what you stand for, what you believe here, and ask those hard questions to your attorney if you're going to grab one.

The police department, city council.

And this is kind of funny because I didn't go to my first city council to Masa was murder.

And let me explain why.

Because if you're not raised up in a life of civics or whatever, you don't really know about the city council meeting or anything like that.

My mother was a although she was pro-black, I was raised that with the Black Panthers and know who they were.

You know what I'm saying?

I really had to educate myself.

So educate yourself on the situation about investing in the children, I wanted to know, what do you guys think should be done to, um, educate more young people, especially in public schools, about what's happening with, you know, racism and, you know, prejudice against black people?

Because I didn't know about this story until I was like 11, 12.

And that was when I was I mean, that was because of my mom telling me not to, you know, play around with toy guns and stuff.

So, yeah, and especially because you stated about getting more action done, I feel like if you you invest more in the children, like you mentioned, we'll get more action done.

So I just wanted to know about this thing.

Yes, absolutely.

Well, um, I do mean when I say by investing in the community, investing in your children and coming out of a broken home, a single parent home, um, I left them.

I lacked a lot of things.

And when I decided to just make those sacrifices for my children and to make sure that they were on the right track for us.

Life goals.

Um, you have to make those sacrifices for your kids.

Um, I would suggest that local schools, public schools get a civics class in there, um, and to get some type of Pan African history class courses in the schools that will help our children in, in our community understand where they come from, who they are, and just how the politics kind of start off being.

Again, I didn't go to my first city council meeting.

My son was murdered and that was not a good feeling.

And it wasn't even aware of it.

I was actually living in a bubble raising my children.

Yeah, I was not part of no community.

I was just surviving like the normal person.

And, um, again, my parents didn't grow up taking me to city council meetings or anything like that.

So when I did get a taste of it, it was disgusting.

And I'm here to put my foot now on the the tiny Goldsby.

I know that.

I know that you probably have a message for the young people in the room and who are listening as well.

Yeah, I do.

Um, like technology is, is, is, has expanded so far right now that we all have little palm Hill computers in our hand.

So take the time to do your own research.

Research candidates that are coming to your community asking for your vote research, you know, research to folks that are representing your community.

As much time as we spend on social media, we can we can educate ourselves at the same time.

And so that just takes a little self-determination to think outside the box.

And if you could spend an hour on tick tock, you can spend an hour doing research.

That's how I look at it.

So this is my that is great advice.

Good afternoon.

I want to first of all, thank the City club for having this very important program.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Project 2025 talks about the elimination of consent decrees, warrantless surveillance, police immunity.

So I'm asking about when you read that, when you heard that.

I just want to know what your thoughts are on it.

And, you know, if that happens, how do you handle it?

So if some of those things happen, we're going to be in deep trouble.

We're going to have less accountability and not more, and we're going to see a kind of immunity that enables at least some police officers to act with impunity.

And and so those things can't happen.

We have a Congress and we we have a House.

We have a Senate.

There are razor thin majorities for a side that may want to see less accountability and we have to make sure that those things don't get through.

Now, the courts, the federal courts, have become increasingly hostile to accountability.

So the doctrine of qualified immunity says that government officials, including police officers who are found not to have violated clearly established law, of which a reasonable police officer would have not known, has been getting more and more strictly interpreting it interpreted by federal courts to say, well, we're going to give him immunity because, gee, this officer didn't hurt this person in exactly the same way as the last case that we saw, even though the use of force was so plainly unwarranted, so that those kinds of games are played sometimes by by federal courts.

So, look, this is going to take a lot of vigilance.

It's going to take people paying close attention to what's happened, what's happening.

And my hope is that there will be enough attention, media attention and otherwise to any efforts to go in the wrong direction, that people will be able to speak up and engage with Congress and try to stop these changes from happening.

Did you want to add anything?

Okay.

Our next question.

Thank you.

Hi, Gabriella Celeste with the Shubert Center for Child Studies at Case Western.

I woke up this morning feeling incredibly grateful that I was going to get to be here with you today, Ms.. Rice and Ms.. Goldsby.

I think all of us have been differently traumatized by the loss of Tamir.

And so to be here together and honor his and your legacy is truly a gift.

So I want to say thank you for that.

You know, we haven't had a chance to heal a community because we haven't taken responsibility as a community.

And the part that we all play, frankly, is not protecting our kids.

I you know, I, I know you were really helpful in efforts to get the Cleveland Division of Police to adopt the first ever national policy on youth police interactions.

But we know, as you've said, policy is not enough.

When we hear the mayor, the D.A., the police chief in the papers recently talk about a 14 year old, and there's the sort of wrongdoing when we know that 90% of the crime in this city happens with the adults.

It's a way of further sort of distancing the public and not protecting them, protecting our kids, having empathy.

So my question for you is, how do we hold our public leaders responsible for protecting our kids, especially our black and brown boys and girls who have gotten the least amount of protection and second chances in our community?

Well, I had to educate myself again.

And when I when I think about public leaders or public officials, you really want me to be honest?

I don't like fraternities.

I don't care for fraternities because it's a sisterhood and a brotherhood that they do stand for.

They do not hold up to what they supposed to do once they get their master's or they bachelors, they pose a comeback to the community and make the community good.

That never happens in most urban communities across the country.

We are we are a thriving community and we should be thriving more.

But we have a held back of the gatekeepers that keep us down, that keep us in property, that keep our communities in distress and don't do good by them.

I would hope that they will have a chance to know that we're all human at the end of the day, and they need to do the humanly thing across this country to do right by their community.

That's that's how I will hold accountability or how are public leaders accountable?

You know, they need to be confronted.

They need to have heart conversations.

And I know a lot of people have came to me and say, hey, do you know, the mayor looked me dead in the face and say anything to me.

The, you know, city council, I've been coming here trying to get help.

Nobody's helping me.

And these are valid situations.

These are concerns that all community people should have.

And it's just sad.

Like, I don't quite understand how politics work.

I do.

And I don't I'm not about I don't want never want to be a politician because I can't live like that.

I always tell the truth.

I can't lie.

So that's that's what I will hope, that the community will hold their public officials accountable and have them necessary heart questions.

And the mayor, some accountability and some change in their communities.

That's what I hope.

I hope to see more people at city council and get a part of be a part of some of the programs, some of the organizations that's out here that's doing the work, like the Tamir Rice Foundation or BLM, Cleveland or Serge or some of the other organizations that I have work with, trying to get some accountability also on county council to they hold all the keys in the city and they don't even do right by the community like they get money to do certain things in the community and, you know, use it, you know, use the money that they the grant money that's supposed to be for the better at a community they use and other stuff instead of knocking down houses or putting up a building to service mental health or whatever, to start a some type of program, whether it's a trade program for people getting out of school or want to learn a trade like they can do.

It shouldn't have to be me, let me say so.

I shouldn't have done invest a quarter of $1,000,000 in a building and don't have no help.

You understand what I'm saying on my own money.

So they got plenty of money two ways to do this and do that.

They need to be putting up buildings to service our community, to teach our community how to take care of the community, because a lot of this ain't been taught how to take care of the community, how to love on a community, to make our community as one.

And then maybe we can have a relationship with the police department when they show us some accountability and they act like they want to be here, you know?

Dealing with the mine is very delicate, very delicate.

So if you're got to be a police officer, just know you're dealing with a delicate mind and you have the promises that God gave you use it and maybe they don't.

And if they don't, don't be a police officer because you're dealing with delicate minds.

Hi, I'm Kayla Pinkus.

I want to flag that.

At this moment, the mayor and city council are making selections about the new community police commissioners and the nominations are concerning.

So please reach out to myself or others to make sure we're engaged on this before the decisions are made.

This is quite urgent at this moment.

Thankfully, we have a consent decree here now with the judge who seems to support the implementation of constitutionally compliant policies.

What is the gap here?

Is there some way?

Our lawyers are a nonprofit.

Civil rights firms can file motions to enforce the decree when our city officials break or evade the law.

How does the average civically engaged citizen demand recourse and compel our politicians, some of whom are represented with us here today, who have concerning lives, surround themselves by children, to follow the law in the way the rest of us are required to.

Thank you.

Thanks.

I can quickly respond to that.

Please, quickly.

I know we're almost out of time.

So first of all, I want to commend Kayla Pinkus, because she actually has succeeded in persuading the Community Police Commission to push through some important policies just in the last 48 hours.

So thank you for your hard work.

Just just a just a quick answer to your question.

The federal judge overseeing the consent decree rejected the attempted intervention of the ACP.

Try to have a seat at the table to be involved in the conversations over the consent decree.

So I think having a private private parties at the table isn't going to be permissible, but people can interface with the monitor who's working with the federal judge to try to get their input, number one.

Number two, though, the we baked into I wrote into the charter amendments that taxpayers have the authority.

If the Community Police Commission is failing to check every box and do everything that's required under that charter amendment.

Taxpayers do have the right to send a demand letter to law director and then to file suit to enforce the decree.

Now, that, unfortunately, is going to require funding, right?

Somebody somebody has got to be able to fund what will be expensive and costly litigation.

But the mechanism is there for a taxpayer or more than one.

ex-Mayor of the city of Cleveland to enforce the amendments to the charter.

So we are out of time right now.

I do want to just say for the benefit of anybody who joined halfway through the conversation is listening on the radio.

Today is ten years since Tamir Rice was killed by a police officer.

And so with us on stage today has been Samaria Rice's mother, his cousin, Attorney Goldsby, who's also president of Black Lives Matter, Cleveland, and Subodh Chandra, an attorney who's worked with the family since 2014.

Thank you all so much.

So we I just have to wrap this up right now, Sonari.

Don't go anywhere.

Forms like this one are made possible thanks to generous support from all of you and people just like you.

You can learn more about how to become a guardian of free speech at City Club dot org.

We'd like to extend our gratitude to the Shah and Chuck Fowler Family Foundation for their support, which made today's conversation possible.

Today's forum is also the David Ralph Hertz Memorial Forum on Civil Liberties.

Mr. Hertz was a lawyer, a judge, a leader in our community, joined the City Club in 1923 and also represented the ACLU, the American Civil Liberties Union, in a number of cases.

His grandson, David Hertz, is also a longtime member of the city club.

Many thanks to students who attended from the following schools.

Brush.

Cleveland School of Architecture and Design.

Cleveland School of Science and Medicine.

Collinwood.

Good Gain Academy.

Lincoln West.

M.S.

Squared, STEM Orange High School and Saint Martin.

The Forest.

Also, thanks to the guests at tables hosted by the Sharon Chuck Fowler Family Foundation, the Community Police Commission, Cleveland Foundation, Judson The King's Policy Matter, Police Matters, Ohio Project Lift Services and the YWCA of Greater Cleveland.

Thank you all so much for your presence here today.

There are some great forums coming up.

All of them are after Thanksgiving.

So check it out at City Club Dot org and have a good Thanksgiving.

Thank you all for being a part of our forum today.

It's adjourned.

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