Loose Talk Costs Lives

James: How--how does this feel for you now in here?

Oh, it's fine, it's fine.

Yeah?

You happy with the lights?

Yes.

I'm fine with the lights, yeah.

And why can't you show your face?

It would be very naïve of me to spend all my life dealing with terrorist organizations and not think there's people out there who would probably want to kill me.

So I'm not going to put my life on the line like that... but yes, I was in-- I was 32 years in the police, and 30 of those were in Special Branch, so...

I know a little bit about things.

♪ ♪ [Crowd shouting and whistling] Man: They were still going full tilt at that stage, weren't they, in the eighties?

Republican bombings and loyalist shootings and just daily tit-for-tat.

It was down to us in Special Branch to find out who was a threat to national security, who are in paramilitary organizations and, uh, what can we do to, uh, infiltrate those organizations and stop them.

But it's not for everyone.

People say Special Branch is a dirty job to do, to, you know, run agents, to run people who are in terrorist organizations.

You start involving informants and stuff, it's, uh, it gets deep and dirty and murky and it's all done under secrecy.

I don't know who coined it as being the "dirty war," but yeah, it was, you know.

♪ Woman, voice-over: My name's Denise, and I lived on an interface in East Belfast.

James: Is--is that what an interface is, where you've got the Protestants here... Yep.

where you live, and then the Catholics on-- Yep, the Catholics on the other side, yep.

It was just--I mean, it was just literally that side of the wall, you don't go, this side of the wall you do.

So here we are at the back.

This is Bryson Street.

Now, I would not have gone past this stage; this was me, finished, you know.

That side's still Protestant, but this side isn't, so this is where I would not want to break down, where--this is us, there's the back of the peace wall, so that's our house in there.

James: Does this feel like enemy territory for you?

Yeah, 100%.

Well--heh!-- you know, well, maybe not, uh, I don't know, but...

I feel--like, my hands feel sweaty, I just... don't enjoy being here.

♪ I mean, I completely--I don't want to go in any further 'cause I don't know how to get out, so...

I know I can get out back there, so I'll just do a U-turn and go.

Oh, oh, there's somebody behind me.

[Whimpers] Right.

Just...

I'll just go 'cause I don't want to be... ♪ caught.

I don't know--so it's funny.

I'm saying I don't want to be caught out, but, I mean, caught out at what?

This is where I don't quite understand my emotions.

♪ Denise, voice-over: What I always felt as a child growing up was I felt that I wanted to just be normal.

I wanted to just be like everybody else, and we couldn't; we weren't like everybody else 'cause we had this secret in our family.

♪ Our life was living, uh, a lie all of the time about who you were, where-- you know, what-- your mum worked at, constantly wondering who--who would tell who, who would know who, and if something happened to Mummy, was it my fault?

Did I say something?

Did I slip up?

[Crowd chanting indistinctly] [Crowd clapping and chanting, "Hey, Hey, IRA!"]

♪ Man, voice-over: You can't fight, uh, a war against the like of the IRA without intelligence, but this is the problem.

You're never going to be in a position to get all the intelligence you need.

[Siren] TV news anchor: A car bomb at Harrods department store in central London kills 9 people.

TV news reporter: In Hyde Park, a car bomb packed with nails exploded into a troop of household cavalry.

Witness: The guards were just standing there, bewildered, just shouting, "Bastards, the bastards!"

Man: I think the IRA realized they could bomb Northern Ireland all day, 7 days a week, and it wasn't going to make much difference to the British government.

"But maybe they'll listen a bit better if we put a bomb in the center of London."

I mean, they weren't stupid, they weren't daft.

They had people there who had brains in their head and could think forward, and they knew exactly what they were doing.

♪ The Irish Republican Army this morning made its most audacious and potentially devastating attack yet on the British government.

[Siren] Just after 3:00 this morning, they attempted to assassinate the Prime Minister, members of her Cabinet, and other leading Tory politicians as they slept in their beds in a Brighton hotel.

You hear about these atrocities, these bombs; you don't expect them to happen to you.

But...life must go on as usual.

Reporter: Thank you, Prime Minster.

Margaret Thatcher: Thank you.

[Camera shutters click] James: Do you remember the Brighton bomb?

No, no.

You don't remember the Brighton bomb?

Was that the one with the white buildings?

I'm trying to think.

The one when they try and kill Thatcher.

Oh, aye, yeah.

That one, yeah.

Remember that one.

[Giggles] Sorry.

[Snickering] Yeah.

Pity didn't get her.

What?

Pity they didn't get her.

Despise that woman.

♪ Voice-over: My name's Anne Marie McKee.

I'm a Republican ex-prisoner, mother of 8 children.

That should be on my gravestone.

♪ I wasn't your normal teenager.

♪ You know, everybody had Wham!

on their rooms and, you know, all their--their pop idols.

Well, mine's was, um, IRA men.

Fucking tricolors hanging from the ceiling.

♪ See, when there was a new poster out, Republican movement, I went and bought 'em.

You couldn't see my room.

♪ Anne Marie: I really looked up to them, you know.

Um...they were like heroes to me.

Anne Marie: So I just watched and learned.

[Clattering] [Scattered, indistinct shouting] ♪ Anne Marie: My life just seemed to be what was going on in Ireland and the Brits, you know, going to marches, protests, just doing something for the struggle.

[Crowd shouting indistinctly] James: So quite a politically aware, motivated teenager.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You had the IRA, and then you had Sinn Fein, you know, and so-- and I was young, so I joined Sinn Fein Youth.

I learnt a lot of the history about Ireland, about things that happened, likes of Bloody Sunday and the whole social injustice.

And the more you educated yourself, you actually became stronger and more, um, passionate and, um, through the education of it.

James: Did you also sort of get lectures on, like, Bloody Friday, for example?

No.

Other IRA atrocities?

No.

So you're getting a very biased account in one regards.

Never at any stage did I feel that I was being brainwashed, um... because I'd seen what was going on in me own home.

I already had been through it, seen it.

Seen dead children in coffins, people being beat in the streets, been pulled out of my bed by the British Army, so nobody can tell me any different.

♪ You see yourself like the next generation, and you want to be a part of that.

And, um, it was like, sort of me younger life was actually preparing me for...later on, you know.

Yeah.

♪ TV reporter: The British government insisted that a dreadful act of terrorism had been prevented when security forces shot dead 3 Republican paramilitaries on the streets of Gibraltar.

At the time they were shot, the suspects were all unarmed.

Anne Marie, voice-over: You hear in the news that 3 volunteers were--they were slaughtered in the streets of Gibraltar.

They shot them in the back, you know.

♪ Man, voice-over: Well, there had to be intelligence to say they were going over there to carry out some sort of an atrocity.

I--I wasn't involved in the actual operation.

I'm not privy to what the intelligence was, but let's assume that some of our informants knew exactly what they were going to do, when they were going to do it, and it was an operation set up to prevent that and, uh... that's what happened.

They prevented it.

James: How did they prevent it?

They shot dead the 3 people involved.

♪ [Bagpipes playing] ♪ News reporter: It began as the families wished, in peace and with dignity.

The bodies of the 3 IRA volunteers shot in Gibraltar were taken from their homes, draped in the Irish tricolor, and followed by a growing procession of mourners as they moved through West Belfast.

[Bells tolling, bagpipes continue] Anne Marie, voice-over: I always went to the marches and the funerals, you know, to show support.

But that funeral that day was... you'd never forget that.

Anne Marie, voice-over: I remember we were carrying the wreaths.

My granny was there, too.

All the family was there, but I was carrying the wreath and we're walking, walking into the graveyard.

And, uh... we're just standing there.

[Two explosions, people screaming] [Explosions, gunfire] Anne Marie, voice-over: And then, all of a sudden, we heard banging... [Two explosions] and grenades went off.

[Distant explosions, gunfire] [People screaming] Man: Jesus.

[Screaming continues] ♪ [Gunfire] Anne Marie, voice-over: I remember standing up, and in the distance, could see this man with dark hair.

[People shouting] Anne Marie, voice-over: He had a gun and was shooting.

[Gunfire] Everybody was ducking.

[Gunshot] It was just--it was chaos.

[Shouting and screaming] ♪ [Gunshot] ♪ [Two gunshots] ♪ [People screaming] Gerry Adams: Can people please stay calm?

Can people stay where they are?

[Car horn honking] [People shouting indistinctly] ♪ [Wailing] ♪ Never seen so many screaming and, you know... what one person could do there, cause chaos with thousands and thousands of people.

[Siren] [Overlapping chatter] [Police radio, indistinct] [Camera shutters clicking] Woman: Jesus Christ!

[Wailing] Soldier bastards!

[Camera shutter clicks] That's me there.

James: How old are you there?

Um, might have been 17?

And is that your grandma?

Yeah.

[Camera shutter clicks] [Wailing] Anne Marie on video: Soldier bastards!

Anne Marie, voice-over: My granny screaming there, it's like an echo.

Are you OK?

Yeah, yeah.

♪ Michael Anthony Stone, a 32-year-old unemployed builder, appeared in a Belfast magistrates' court this afternoon, charged with the murders of 3 people in Wednesday's attack at Milltown Cemetery.

News reporter: At the end of the hearing, Stone told police, "I alone carried out "this military operation "as a retaliatory strike against the IRA.

"I am a dedicated freelance loyalist paramilitary.

No surrender."

♪ I had been never so angry in my life.

It just sort of made a permanent print in my head, in my mind, you know.

"I'm not sitting back" and...you know, "I need to do something, need to help in some way."

I was that angry.

Tom King, Secretary of State: Can I just say this?

That at a time of emotion, there obviously will be the thought of revenge and retaliation.

If that happens, this mad and awful cycle of killing and murder and violence will go on.

♪ ♪ ♪ Anne Marie, voice-over: Everybody was, like, on alert that day... and tensions were really, really high.

♪ I was way on down-- down the road 'cause the crowds, you know, and the, um, I heard there was a commotion, something about, um, there's a car, pulled into crowds.

♪ [Brakes screech] [Crowd shouting] ♪ Anne Marie, voice-over: There was a fear in everybody's minds.

Was this happening again?

Was it a remake of Milltown?

[Shouting continues] Anne Marie, voice-over: But we really didn't know what was going on, until you heard afterwards.

James: What did you hear?

I just heard that they were two British Army fellas.

[Indistinct shouting] ♪ Man: Open here, open here.

Woman: Right here.

[Shouting and pounding continue] [Helicopter blades whirring] ♪ From an early age, I did believe in God, you know, I mean, like, and, uh, it was always a big part of my childhood.

[Pounding and shouting continue] John Chambers: When these soldiers, uh, were attacked, you know what I mean, that was the most horrendous thing I've ever seen in my life.

Back, back, back!

Back!

Bug off!

It was one of them, you know what I mean, like, moments that make you stop.

What kind of god would let this kind of madness go on, you know?

[Crowd shouting indistinctly] ♪ [Car horn honking] News reporter: The police say the two soldiers were then put in a black taxi and taken to waste ground behind the Anderson Town Road shops, where they were severely beaten, stripped, and shot dead.

♪ ♪ Denise, voice-over: I can see the footage in my head, and it just makes me physically sick.

I--I can't watch that.

I literally--I literally cannot watch that.

It's the most horrific... ♪ Horrific, horrific, horrific.

♪ And then that shock progresses to worry about...Mum's job and the family secret... ♪ because Mum was in the army.

And that was the biggest fear that I would have had, that Mummy could be next.

I am Jean, and I was a Greenfinch in the Ulster Defence Regiment.

And, um, I'm proud of the years that I served, um, just trying to subdue the IRA and prevent the atrocities.

News reporter: Known by their nickname, Greenfinches are the only women in the British Army who have a full front-line role in military operations.

Greenfinch: Where you coming from?

News reporter: Since 1970, 174 male soldiers of the UDR and 4 Greenfinches have been killed by the IRA or other paramilitaries.

UDR Captain: The greatest strain, I think, is one that is unique to the circumstances that this regiment live under, where they are at threat, to a greater extent, when they're off duty than when they're on duty.

♪ Jean: As a single person with two children, I felt like I was finally doing something to try and make the country a better place.

James: Did you understand how dangerous something like this was before you joined?

No.

No idea, really, um... how it could... impact on your family and it's not just you that's joining.

Your whole family are targeted.

♪ The extension here, that's our house.

Denise, voice-over: Everybody in the forces lived under that kind of terror, but we as a family just felt extra-vulnerable because we weren't on the barracks.

We were actually living in the community, living on that interface.

[Distant dog barking] ♪ Now, you see, I should have brought my glasses.

[Sighs] It's a book about all the people who died during the conflict, from the start to the finish.

It goes by the date they were killed, from the year, who killed them, why they were killed, and it is--it is a powerful book to read.

And it's not fiction.

It's real, so... yeah.

♪ I mean, it's everybody from RUC soldiers, UDR, civilians, Catholic, Protestant-- everyone's in it.

James: And how many people do you know in there, did you say?

27.

And one of them's my father.

♪ [Door closes] [Key locks door] ♪ Voice-over: My name is Billy McManus.

I am from Belfast.

My daddy was killed by loyalists, 5th of February, 1992.

♪ The aftermath of what happened at Sean Graham's bookies is still rippling through my community, and it still will until, hopefully, one day we get justice.

I've great memories of being a young fella and standing beside my dad.

He was called Big Willie and... trying to drink pints of Guinness with him and end up hauling on his knees until ya-- my dad--my dad could drink.

But that's just the way he was.

Liked his beer and greyhounds and... wasn't involved in any political thing, so... and he just-- like, he had--he--oh, he was just-- he was just--he was-- he was just my dad.

[Sniffs] Man on microphone: Man on microphone: We also remember... James, voice-over: The killers, have they been caught?

What's that?

Have your father's killers ever been caught?

No.

No, these people have never been charged.

Never been a day in court.

They're still enjoying their lives, planning weddings, going on holiday.

It's not fair that the killers of these 5 people... to get away with murder.

Billy, voice-over: Families need to get the answers they deserve and the peace that they want.

We have fought for 30 years to get the truth about what happened on that day, and, as you know, I was there.

As I stand here today, it makes me so proud that we never give up.

And on Monday morning, we will stand shoulder to shoulder and hopefully get the report that we deserve.

Will the truth be in the report?

I hope so, 'cause once you get the truth, we will get justice.

Thank you.

♪ Thank you, son.

[Kiss] Billy, voice-over: I don't call it the troubles anymore because... it was more than troubles.

We were fucking animals to each other, and that's just the way it was.

♪ Recorded voice: Help restore peace to Ulster.

Any information you've got about explosions, murders, ring Belfast 6521-double 5.

And don't worry.

Your call is absolutely safe and confidential.

We needed to know who was in the organization and--and who was in command positions in the organization, and so you have to have people recruited from within the organization to deal with that.

James: And that's called an agent, is it?

Uh, yes, a-- agent, source.

If you're from the Republican side, you'd call 'em a "tout," and, uh, those are obviously the most valuable because they're into the heart of what's going on.

♪ ♪ Anne Marie, voice-over: You kept it zipped 'cause one wrong word can lead to somebody dying or somebody being arrested.

[Festive music playing] It's like even going into bars, you know, if there was a stranger there, be watched, because you don't know who they are.

You know, they could be Special Branch.

They could be a tout, trying to sort of listen to information within sort of the Republican, sort of, um, family.

[Children chattering indistinctly] Anne Marie: There's an old thing that everybody used to say, used to be painted all over the walls in Belfast.

♪ "Loose talk costs lives."

James: And did you take that seriously?

Definitely.

♪ Anne Marie: Because there was a time sort of then that the IRA had asked me for a favor... to, um, plant firebombs within Belfast shops... which, at that stage, I was happy to do.

You just go in, look around you, find your spot.

You've just got this stuff in your bag and you have to get rid of it.

You have to put it somewhere where it's not going to be found.

That's--that's all I focused on.

And then you just waited.

♪ There was 11-hour timer on 'em, you know, so you sort of knew, if you plant them a certain time, then you knew there was going to be no injuries, you know, because it would go off during the night.

[Siren] News reporter: Two firebombs exploded in the center of Belfast early this morning.

A third ignited as firemen tackled the blaze.

The owners estimate losses of more than £1 million.

My--my head was full of hatred, you know, and I wanted to help in some way, and if it's what I had to do to help... never questioned, just did it.

James: Is there anything that would have made you question, like, you know, if they said these devices are going to go off at...lunchtime?

♪ No.

♪ News reporter: Protestant, as well as Catholic communities, are hostage as sectarian murder escalates.

But the key ingredient in the rising level of violence has been a new wave of loyalist terrorists.

For the first time since the seventies, loyalists are responsible for more killing than the Republicans.

[Police radio, indistinct] Billy, voice-over: People didn't go out as much in the early nineties.

Didn't travel.

I think they were always waiting on seeing what was happening 'cause that was what happened; it was, "They done it to us, so we're going to do it to them," it's tit for tat, but an eye for an eye leaves you blind, hmm?

[Police radio, indistinct] Billy, voice-over: I'll never forget watching the Teebane atrocity on the news.

That was when workmen were coming home from working on an RUC station and the IRA blew up their van, and I think there was 8 of them killed and so many injured.

And I remember clear as day what my father says.

Do you know what my father says?

"Some poor Catholic's going to get shot for it.

Some innocent Catholic's going to die."

[Crow caws] And I didn't realize, a couple weeks later, it'd be him.

James: Do you want-- do you want to tell me about that day?

The bookies?

It was just normal.

I was round painting in a house, and then, at lunchtime, it was about 1:00, and my dad-- I turned round, he was walking up the road.

And, um, I shouted over to him and he turned back and waved over at me, and then he just walked on up the road.

And then I went back to work, and... John, my supervisor at the time, run in and he says, "Billy, something bad's happened up at the bookies," and I knew my daddy was there.

I just--don't ask me how I knew.

I just-- it's--a terrible feeling came over me.

[Sirens] ♪ [People shouting] News reporter: Sean Graham bookmakers, in a Catholic area of Belfast, had been packed with people when two gunmen entered the building and immediately started shooting indiscriminately.

[Sirens] Billy, voice-over: I sprinted up that road.

[Child crying] Billy: The first person I seen was me uncle laying outside, and I could realize there was something seriously wrong with him.

He had blood--he was holding his stomach, and the blood was coming through his hands, God love him.

But then he says, um, "Where's your daddy?

Go and--go and get your daddy."

[Heart beating] [People shouting] Billy: So I went in to Sean Graham's bookies for that couple of seconds, and then this state police officer just appeared out of nowhere.

[Man speaks indistinctly] And I says, "Let me in.

My daddy's in there."

He says "No, don't you go in.

You don't want to go in."

Back over that way there!

Come on!

Please!

Are you all right?

Just stand there.

[Indistinct shouting] [Sirens] ♪ Billy, voice-over: People just were all around me.

It was pandemonium, it was mayhem.

[Shouting continues] Billy: And then a big mate came out, Brian McCartan, and I said, "Brian, where's my daddy?

What about my daddy?"

and he just says... he just said, "Billy, they're gone.

They're all gone.

He's dead."

Aah!

[Crying] [People shouting] Billy, voice-over: And then I let out a big scream.

It was caught on camera.

It was caught.

The camera crew caught it.

And then Brian-- Brian held me up 'cause my legs went.

[Siren] Let's go.

Move.

News reporter: As victim after victim was brought out, the scale of the outrage slowly became clear.

Five people died.

Another 10 were injured in a hail of gunfire.

Woman: It's our sons, our husbands, were brothers and all is getting shot down.

What for?

What's it gaining?

Nothing at all.

Look at this woman.

Look at that woman down there!

[People speaking indistinctly] Fuck off, would ya?

Just innocent people.

Not one of them involved in politics, not one of them involved in paramilitarism.

Just innocent.

[People shouting indistinctly] News reporter: This evening, the outlawed Ulster Freedom Fighters said they carried out the murders.

"Remember Teebane," they said, a reference to the incident in which the IRA blew up a bus of Protestant construction workers, killing 8 people.

The attack has drawn attention to the new tactics being deployed by loyalist paramilitary groups.

Billy: From the first week at Sean Graham's bookies, people knew there was something dirty about it.

I think it was talked about quietly at the first... but... the word collusion, to us, was where we were all looking.

James: And just-- just explain to me what--what collusion is.

Collusion is, in my eyes, when... loyalist paramilitaries and the state security forces work together in killing someone.

James: And by the state security forces, do you mean-- I mean the British Army, the RUC, um, and Special Branch.

Well, collusion to me, to me, uh, is where a police officer goes to a member of a terrorist organization and says to them, "There's a target for you, you know.

Go and--go and kill 'em."

Obviously, that's out-and-out collusion, but, uh, it's not that simple.

I mean, you could argue that I colluded every day of my Special Branch life.

I colluded with informants, I met them, so, uh, I'm breaking the law, in the-- in the sense of it, uh, I'm colluding, uh, 'cause they are telling me about a job that's going down.

But the reason I'm colluding, I'm colluding to try and get it stopped.

But at the end of the day, we will do what we have to do to stop terrorists.

♪ News anchor: Firebombs have badly damaged two stores in the center of Belfast.

Thousands of pounds' worth of stock was destroyed as the bombs exploded early this morning.

Anne Marie, voice-over: I think it was over a period of a couple months that I planted incendiary devices... and it went-- it went well.

♪ But then...

I was actually heavily pregnant at the time, um, during it.

And then, um... next stage in my life was that I was in hospital, having a second child.

Lovely, wee girl.

[Baby crying] And, um, when I came out of labor ward, somebody came and told me that, um, an ex-boyfriend, he was talking, big-time.

There had been-- had a number of arrests due to information he had give to the-- the RUC, and my name was one of them.

Um...

I'll make a point here that, actually, the fella who had give my information, give the information about me, was... the baby I had's father.

♪ So I sort have had to come round that sort of, you know, betrayal; you know, after having a child, his child, and he can give your name forward.

[Police radio, indistinct] Anne Marie: I understand how, through interrogation, people sort of break down.

But he knew the consequences for me.

♪ It was early hours, Sunday morning.

The cops and Brits were at the door.

"We're arresting you under terrorism act" and stuff like this here.

"All right, right, OK." I asked could I go back in again, say cheerio to the kids.

They wouldn't let me back in, they wouldn't.

I was there arrested, so, from the kitchen, they just took me out to a jeep and they, uh, took me straight to Castlereagh... for 7 days' interrogation.

♪ James: Castlereagh a scary place?

Huh?

Is Castlereagh quite a scary place?

A fucking nightmare.

It's a hellhole.

You know, just total, total hellhole...you know.

They play mind games with you.

Oh, they're good.

Twist things and everything else, you know.

Just constant interrogation.

They try and break you.

They say they were interrogated.

I say they were interviewed, uh, but saving lives is what we were about, and any piece of intelligence is valuable, any smallest piece of intelligence is useful.

I was trying to break them into admitting that they were members of a paramilitary organization and then recruit them.

Personally, I think, everyone's recruitable if you find the right button to press.

Lot of people in there didn't come out the same people, you know, through the hours and hours of interrogation, you know.

You could be sitting-- sitting there.

It was just a wee table, and them two sitting there the other side in the wee room.

Maybe constantly kicking-- kicking your chair, screaming into your ear, you know, trying to degrade you as a woman.

Uh, talk about your child, you're an unfit mother, and this, that, and the other.

They're looking for something just to break you down, offering you money to give them information.

Like, they offered me 35,000, but that's one thing you don't do.

You don't fucking talk in Castlereagh.

You give thems nothing.

You give them no information, and I was proud that I didn't, um, didn't talk or tell anything, you know.

They didn't get anything from me.

♪ ♪ Denise, voice-over: As a young kid, I can remember feeling that constant awareness.

You know, say nothing, talk to nobody, tell nobody anything... and it's so hard to think we lived like that, you know.

I suppose sometimes I would go, like, "What were you thinking joining at that time?"

But I can see it as an adult now.

As a child, you can't because you just want to blend in, but you can see money was tight, you needed to do it, you wanted to do something for the country.

I've never, ever heard Denise's view on it, never.

James: Did you not ask?

Is it because you haven't asked, or is it just because-- To be honest, I never thought to ask.

It just--it was something I had to do, and it was something that the kids, as I thought, understood.

But to ask them really how youse felt, I feel ashamed now that I didn't.

Oh, Mum, no.

I do.

You know, I should have-- I should have realized, but I didn't.

I thought I was doing the best that I could do.

♪ Until this, doing this here, I couldn't even say.

You--you--just-- I was so drilled not to say it.

You know, army, UDR-- these are words that I've only just started in my vocabulary now in the sense of openly talking about it.

I should be proud and able to stand up and say, "My mum was Greenfinch."

I'm so proud of you, and this is probably first time I've said it, you know, really and truly, and not felt fear for putting you at risk, you know, and we ought to be able to do that in our life, you know, and be proud of the people we are, proud of the families we've come from, proud of the risks, yes, we take, all of those things, and now, hopefully, we're at a time where, you know, if something was gonna happen, it would've happened, you know.

I hope that we're not putting ourselves at any further risk by coming out.

No, I don't think so.

And explaining how it is from our side-- from our side of the story because everybody's got their own version of their own stuff, you know.

That's the truth.

Mm-hmm.

[Squeaking] Anne Marie: I was sentenced to 5 years, but when you go into jail, you sort of just set your mind, you know.

This is your life now, and you just have to get on with it, you know, and the way you deal with that was to block the kids out.

Sounds harsh, you know, but you would be climbing the walls and you would end up a nervous breakdown, you know, um...and you just had to get on, do your time.

♪ [Indistinct chatter] ♪ I'll always remember my first visit with my kids.

Hadn't seen the kids in a couple of months... and one of the other prisoners had-- um, had a baby on her knee, and I remember it was the wee, loopy cardigans.

It was lilac and white.

There was one, and she had swarthy skin, a wee, loopy hat.

It was gorgeous, and I remember Donna saying, "Look at my new wee baby," and I said, "Ah, God, she's gorgeous," you know.

And then...

I realized it was me own child.

I didn't know her.

Um... and that was hard, that, you know, somebody else was holding a child that I had delivered and fed, that I didn't recognize her.

Um... that was--I was embarrassed, I was ashamed.

You know, everything was racing through my head that I actually didn't recognize me own child because she had something on that I hadn't bought her.

Um, and after that, I says... "I have to pull myself together here.

"You know, have to put that out my head and move on from it."

But still, to this day, you know, it pops up.

The lilac cardigan and the wee hat, the wee baby, you know.

Um...yeah.

That was the hardest.

♪ Looking back now, I was probably one of the lucky ones.

Prison probably saved me.

You know...I'm not dead.

You know, look at how many people died.

Friends have died, you know.

There's all that "what if," you know.

"This could have happened, that could have happened."

Yeah.

The thing is, at least my kids could come up and see me.

There's children who could never see their parents again.

♪ I never told my dad that I loved him... but my dad said to me one day.

He came in drunk one night, and I used to take off his boots.

I think it was a Sunday or something.

Here's me, "I'm going to bed, too.

I have to get up for work in the morning."

And he just--as soon--I was-- I put him into bed and threw the blanket over him, and I was walking out the door, and he just turned around, and he says, "I love you," and I should have turned round and said it, and I didn't, and that's the regret I have because I never got the opportunity to say it to him.

I know my father was killed, a part of the dirty war.

Collusion, agents, people working for the state.

That's just what happened.

James: And how did you piece all this together?

How long did it take?

It took about 30 years of going to court, getting bits and pieces from other people's reports, inquests, but the biggest thing, the biggest one was the police ombudsman.

♪ OK.

Thank you.

♪ [Indistinct chatter] Woman: Is there any family that doesn't have a report?

Let's make sure every family... Billy, voice-over: I was very anxious.

I suppose you were filled with apprehension about was gonna be said in it, and suppose there's a weight on your shoulders, where you knew for 30 years you've been fighting for this day and hoping that you get the answers in it.

Huw Edwards: In Northern Ireland, the police watchdog has found evidence of collusive behavior by police in 11 murders by loyalist paramilitaries in Belfast in the 1990s.

The enquiry examined the killings of 5 people in a bookmaker's shop and 6 other fatal shootings.

Reporter: The police ombudsman found failings and collusive behaviors by RUC officers, intelligence had not been shared, warnings had not been passed on, weapons had been given to loyalist killers, but the biggest amongst them was how informants were recruited and run.

They were providing information, but they were also killing.

8 individuals were identified as agents.

Between them, they were linked to 27 murders and attempted murders.

James: I appreciate that you didn't have anything to do with the Sean Graham bookies case, but I do want to ask how did you deal with informants that were breaking the law?

Well, had to make some very difficult decisions sometimes, but there's nobody gonna tell an agent somebody had recruited, "I don't want your intelligence because you stole from that old woman's house last night."

You know, I mean, I do want that information.

Where would your line be, like, "This ends now"?

Well, if he's been out and slaughtered individuals and murdered, and, you know, he's beyond control.

He's--he's-- That would be your line?

Uh...uh, again, I would have to weigh up what I can get from them, but, yeah, that would be very--that would be a line, yeah.

♪ Billy, voice-over: It's all there on paper.

They armed them, they recruited them, and they actually... let people away with murder.

It makes me frustrated, angry, but I'm not gonna stop.

I'm not gonna give up.

The next step is to get the case reopened and go after the killers.

Billy: I could name the 3 people involved in Sean Graham's bookmakers, and if we can work it out who pulled the trigger and who drove the car, the police must know.

Why, 30 years later, are they still protecting these loyalist death squads, and what is the PSNI gonna do about it?

Thank you.

I know who killed my father, I know their names... and I've seen photographs of them, and I know they know me... but I would like my day in court.

I would like their families to know that they were murderers and they killed my father, a 54-year-old man who was shot 9 times because he was a Roman Catholic.

I hope justice drops at their door.

That's all I want.

♪ ♪ I want to make my daddy proud of me for one last time.

That's all I want.

♪ Blessed are the peacemakers.

Yvonne Cowan: The shouting and the cheering and the yoo-hooing.

"Oh, my God, there's an end coming to this."

Denise: There can't be peace at any cost because then it's not really peace.

Alan McBride: I just remember where I was.

I just remember who I was.

I remember the anger that I had.

Man: Sometimes, you need to stare into the abyss to realize that this can't go on.

♪ ♪