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Good afternoon.

Good afternoon, and welcome to the City Club of Cleveland, where we are devoted to conversations of consequence that help democracy thrive.

It's Friday, November 14th, and I'm Sean Watterson.

I'm co-owner of the Happy Dog.

Hey.

Thank you.

And, board member of the National Independent Venue Association, a community partner for this event and chair of its Ohio chapter.

Little on Niva.

We were established during Covid, and we represent the live music and comedy venues, festivals and promoters that are integral to the developing artist ecosystem.

We have information out front.

In Ohio, we generated over 1.5 billion in GDP in 2020 for 20,000 jobs, supported over 950 million in wages and benefits.

But 80% of independent venues in Ohio lost money in 2024.

So, Yeah, well.

But but that's why it's such an honor to introduce today's forum, featuring John Panza from the Panzer Foundation and Patrick Carney from the Black Keys, from underground clubs to sold out arenas, every musician and band that made it big started small.

Some of them had humble beginnings right here in Northeast Ohio, at places like Pat's and the Flats Rep, Happy Dog Park Shop and the Beach Land, among many, many others.

In his Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction speech, Andre 3000 said great things start in little rooms, the story of one of Akron's most successful bands and future Rock Hall inductee, The Black Keys, is no different, as anyone who saw them at the Beach Land Tavern back in March of 2002 can attest.

Together with bandmate Dan Auerbach, Pat Carney began recording in basements and touring in a 1994 Plymouth Grand Voyager.

Ultimately, the band chose a similar minivan for the cover of their double platinum album, El Camino, which rose to number two on the Billboard album chart in 2011.

It was a humorous nod to their humble beginnings and band van days.

While the hustle and grind can seem like a rite of passage for rock bands.

It doesn't necessarily need to be that way.

John Panza and Jane at the Panza Foundation believe that even small amounts of assistance can have a profound effect on the artistic output, and morale of independent artists.

Established in 2014, the Panza Foundation aims to support local independent musicians and bands, and during Covid, local venues.

Thank you.

Allowing those artists the freedom to pursue their craft with the best tools and opportunities possible.

Today we will dig into the Black Keys journey to success and how we all can support musicians and the venues where they get their start in an increasingly difficult environment for the artist development ecosystem.

Before we begin, a quick reminder for our live stream and radio audience.

If you have a question during the Q&A portion of the forum, you can text it to (330)541-5794, and City Club staff will try and work it into the program.

Our members and friends of the City Club, please join me in welcoming John Panza and Pat Carney.

Can you hear me?

Okay.

All right.

I was worried my beard was going to scrape this thing.

And, So thanks for coming out.

We're just I'm just going to throw some questions at Patrick, and and I want to start at the now, like, what have you guys been up to the past year or two?

I guess, you know, ever since 2020, we, you know, we we had a whole tour that got canned and, we made this record right before that happened.

Called Delta Kream.

That came out, in spring of 2021.

And basically from that moment till now, we just have been, like, working relentlessly.

Yeah, kind of we we that came out, we went right into the dance studio, we started recording and we made a record that, called Dropout Boogie.

And while that was still being mixed, we started what became Ohio Players.

And while that was being mixed, we made another record.

And we've been touring and, you know, and actually, you know, we're mixing something right now.

It's almost, we have we're just constantly working, you know, and it's funny because, like, we're deep into the career where like almost 25 years in and I still at one point like around 2019, I was like, this is kind of getting like this has it's just getting a little plug and play.

Yeah.

Not not the music, but like make a record, put it out, tour these same venues.

And I was like and I remember like getting really upset about it.

I remember you calling me about it and, and then I got, I guess I got what I wish for.

Yeah.

Which is a much more interesting career lately.

But I think, you know, post Covid, navigating the the music industry is just a much different beast, especially the live music industry.

Everything's kind of, you know, getting, you know, there's one company in particular buying everything you can say the name.

Yeah, well, we know the name.

It begins with that.

But, you know, it's like it's been pretty eye opening in the last.

Yeah.

Especially the last two years for me just to be like, what?

You know what a burden is to have to deal with something like that.

And, you know, we are.

I mean, I don't know if we're supposed to talk about it when we're doing a tour next year, and we're avoiding 100% that company, which is very difficult.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Very difficult to do that.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, they have a monopoly, so it's like.

I mean, let's face it, there are conversations about breaking them up.

There are conversations about, you know, what's appropriate.

And bands can only do so much.

Even a band like The Keys a year, guys level can only do so much.

Also, you have to.

What kind of decisions do you have to make if you want to do what you do?

If you keep hearing musicians constantly from you know, all stages of success or whatever, talking about how, touring is getting to to be unprofitable.

Yeah.

The expenses of touring, you know, whatever you a bus or whatever, you know, everything's gone way up three fold.

But, yeah, I think you get down to the core of this.

There's this.

You know, someone gave me a ticket from, a concert we played in 2010, and it was at, Central Park.

Yeah, the stage there, and, the ticket was $37, and then there was a $5 and 77 ticket fee, right.

That same take it now, I would have a $25 ticket fee.

And it would be $100.

It would be.

I don't know what I mean.

Yeah.

There's this now made up fee that just goes on top of the ticket that.

Yeah that is just so like the fans are getting reamed and then the money is just getting grabbed and not coming down.

And so yeah, it's becoming a complete, a it's a real problem.

I know legislation was passed that said that they have to now tell you the fees ahead of time.

They do.

So when you go buy a ticket for Black Keys show or anybody show, you say, oh, I want the $65 ticket.

Then while you're checking out, then they'll say, okay, actually, it's a $40 ticket.

Yeah.

And there's $25.

Yeah.

So yeah, I mean, it's all it's all messed up if you look at like, what this company I'm not naming share price is worth my I said this is this is an interesting thing.

Position of the share price is up six I said I said 600%.

Yeah.

Over the last ten years I mean that's on skew with like meta on some of these tech cap or Spotify.

Spotify.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I mean, what's changed now I mean is what has changed Covid and how they.

Yeah how it's scaled.

Yeah.

So it's it's it's a it's a messed up.

So you guys are you guys are recording music at a much faster clip than you used to be.

We used to always make music quickly I think.

But you know, Dan has a studio, his two actually, I have a studio and.

And this in Nashville.

Right.

This in Nashville, we live.

Yeah.

But I think, you know, Dan, I've been through we've been through a lot together, you know, and we've come out of this the last 5 or 6 years like I mean we talk every day.

I see him 3 or 4 times a week when I'm in town.

We've, you know, we've become we were neighbors who kind of knew each other and started spending.

And we've we've truly become best friends.

So it's like when I'm home, I'm going to hang out, we're going to hang out, and ultimately we're going to be making music.

And the implication is it wasn't always like that.

There was a period you guys, over the course of you, you've grown in your relationship with each other over the past 25, 26, 27 years.

Yeah.

It's interesting thing.

It's like, you know, when you we were, you know, we were friendly, you know, but we weren't like hanging out.

And then we started this band and all of a sudden a two person band might two.

Yeah.

Okay.

Now all of a sudden we're we're like in a 1994 Plymouth band, Voyager, and we're, you know, spending weeks at a time exactly with each other.

So, I mean, we've always got along well, but I think, you know, you know, it's like a band is interesting.

The dynamic is incredible because, you know, we had to learn how to make music together, and we have to, like, learn uncomfortable situations where it's like, how do you tell someone that their idea could be better, you know, and at once, you, you know, that's early on and we've, we got that kind of dialed.

And then it was like, well, how do we get a third person in like in the room and exactly.

And a producer and producer and we luckily, you know, worked with, danger Mouse for a number of albums and he taught us so much about making music, about the creative process of of how you, you know, how you just discuss like, you know, if someone has idea how you can make it better, then I think at this point, you know, then and then also on top of all this, we went through this thing where we went from, you know, you know, starting our first show at the beach, then, and then a number of years, we're playing massive square garden and, and, that.

Well, really do a head trip to you.

Yeah.

And, it did for us, from 50 to 15,000.

Yeah.

Like.

Yeah.

Just like there were 12,000 at Madison Square, you know, because it's it's terrifying and it's exciting, and there's a lot of ego and stuff that comes out and.

Yeah, and people start arriving that weren't there before.

Yeah.

And.

Yeah.

And, and, you know, we went through this and we went to this spot to the point where at our peak, we were like, I mean, in 2015, we we headlined this festival Outside Lands, maybe like 70,000 people.

And, you know, we were getting we got paid a million bucks and we were like, we're not booking any more shows.

And I just remember I remember that day going back in time to 2003, we were opening for Sleater-Kinney, and they were playing the Roseland Ballroom in in New York City, and we saw what their guarantee was.

It was like 50,000 bucks.

I was like, in 2003, 50,000 bucks.

Yeah, like I told Dan, and I don't care if you hate me, if we ever make $50,000 a show, you still gotta get it on stage.

But anyway, here we are in 2015.

We had just burned out.

We had got we had lost the ability to communicate.

Well, yeah, we we I think we were just grinding and you know, and that was a decade of grinding at that point, a little more than a decade of grinding at that point, a little bit more than that.

But yeah, you know, ultimately we, we, we took this break.

We didn't like break the band up, but we just took a break, which we found out, you know, most bands do that every album.

Every album.

Yeah.

Take a hit.

I mean, I don't wanna have to tell you that.

Yeah, yeah.

So we took, we took every three years for most.

We have to put in perspective most major bands.

Well like every three years probably for an album, maybe four, depending.

But you guys were album album album album album pretty pretty consistently.

Yeah.

I mean so yeah, we, we took, we took some time off and we literally didn't speak for like a year.

And then start hanging out a little bit.

And when, when we kind of figured out how to.

Get it how we wanted it again.

It's just been steadily getting better and better for us.

And I think, like the actually the Covid break was like we had just started making we've just made a record and just toured and we had this break.

And I think it ultimately was a really good thing for us because it was like it kept it from becoming a burden.

So like now actually when we go do it, it's like it feels more like the old days, like five years on than a couple of years off for Covid and and back at it again.

It just not stopping now.

Yeah.

But it's you know I think we've just we've figured out a lot of stuff.

We've been through a lot of stuff.

What do you, what do you consider to be your I mean, people mentioned Rock Hall and you guys are I mean, obviously you guys will be nominated.

There's there's no doubt about it for the Rock Hall and you qualify.

What if for 25 years after your first.

So we'd be 27, right.

It'll be 2027 if we're looking.

I mean, we're going to back up and start talking about the beginning a little bit, but I just want to know your opinion about that.

Have you ever been to the Rock Hall?

Patrick and I know the answer.

I've been to the lobby to see my uncle play.

But it's not because I. I don't know my dad.

We never went to open.

My dad was here.

We never went.

Which I think is.

And he's the one who introduced me to music in the first place and and got me going, deep into being obsessed with it.

But I've never actually been okay inside of the museum.

I want to go.

But now I'm like, maybe I should wave, like, five of you might wave.

It'd be really wonderful.

Your first appearance at the Rock Hall would be literally getting in, like, getting in.

But then we'll end up getting in, like, 40 years.

Exactly.

Yeah.

That's right.

We we got to induct Steve Miller into the yes Rock Roll Hall of Fame.

And we didn't realize there was a little bit of politics there.

Oh yeah.

Like he was like one of the founders of the Rock Hall of Fame was boys with him back in the day.

And then they didn't put him in until 2016.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So he would he wasn't happy.

He wasn't pleased.

And the fact that I can't I didn't graduate I mean, I didn't graduate college, I'm not very good at writing.

I contributed one line to this induction speech, which was, I, I looked up Wikipedia, that he was born in Milwaukee.

So I said, there's been a lot of Miller's made in Milwaukee, but only one Steve.

And that's that's what he did.

Now, you didn't like it?

No, no, you should mention the robot Fonzie.

And that would have been.

Yeah.

You know, so let me ask you this.

So, so backing up, talk a bit about that first show at the beach line, because that was your first gig.

Like the first show.

Show like.

So yeah, I just go back a little further.

I mean, like, the band started because Dan and I are brothers, we're best friends and we grew up in the same neighborhood, like a couple houses from each other and down to, like, a year older.

And, he was always, you know, kind of quiet stoner hippie soccer guy.

And I was more, I don't know, indie rock nerd or something.

And I found out Dan was playing music.

My brothers, he's just like, you know, play music with Dan.

I think I didn't realize he played music.

And he came down one day with his guitar and I was like, this guy is actually playing guitar.

And it's like, we would like make these demo tapes and we would, you know, kind of get together and play.

And this is like in the late 90s.

And then essentially we ended up he had this bar band, and I had just bought this little recorder and I was like, I'll record your band if you want.

Come over to this punk rock house I was living in.

And so he showed up and the rest of the guys in his band, it was like a covers bar.

Yeah, they didn't show up.

So he's like, you should just play drums like he used to.

And we recorded this little demo going a couple of hours.

This is like right around 911 and 2001.

And then they gave it to him a couple days later and he's like, we should just start a band.

And instantly I, I knew we should call it The Black Keys because of this family friend of ours who was artist who would, like, leave these messages on our machine, like asking our fathers for crayons and stuff.

And he would call it play black keys, D-flat.

So anyway, we make this thing, we send it off, and we end up getting this little record deal for this company in LA.

And we were like, if you send us a record, finished an album, we'll put it out.

And.

And so we did that.

We dropped out of college and we made this record in my basement in February of 2002, and then we sent it off to them and the the guy that runs the label, this guy Patrick French guy, was like, now you need to play concerts, you need to play shows.

And I was like, so Dan, I think you either.

Dan took it up to the beach center.

There was a show being thrown by Jamie Stillman or maybe Jamie Stillman.

Yeah, yeah, but he's the owner of Earthquake Devices.

But he's.

Yeah.

Local legend.

Akron legend.

Yeah.

And his girlfriend, his girlfriend at the time, who now runs a Julie, was booking bands.

So I don't remember if we ended up at the beach and we played the beach.

The ballroom is our first show.

What?

First out of four on Easter Sunday in the tavern?

Yeah, we had a tavern and we were so nervous.

This river coming off stage in our 30 minutes that had lasted like 22 minutes.

We just.

Yeah, but Mark and Cindy were there and like, you guys were really good.

And Mark's like, I can give you a show two weeks.

April 15th, was my birthday.

There's a Monday opening for the Dan Milk for review.

We went back up and we played it.

This time.

No one was their first show.

They were ten people, but they were so encouraging that, you know, and they were like, you should start trying to get some shows.

Because we were trying to avoid we didn't want to be a local band.

Yeah.

Was so like, we they helped us get shows at the lager House and, Mickey Finn's in Toledo.

Yep.

And ultimately we end up getting this mercenary or booking agent through our record label who basically just sent us this cryptic email one day, here's your tour.

And it was like one page and it was like, right, how are we going to do this?

We have to like drive to Denver.

And that was a three that was at three weaker.

It was three weeks and the guarantees were like $50 or.

Yeah, it was like 50 bucks on it.

Oh don't worry, gas was only $3.

You know, that's like a to to drink ticket.

Yeah.

Which by the way is still the going rate 50.

That's not I'm not joking by the way $50 in two drink tickets.

Any musicians in the room raise your hand.

Yeah.

Oh.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We know.

Hey, Raven.

We were.

I mean, I didn't even I don't think I had, like, maybe three beers the whole tour because I was driving after.

Yeah, because we couldn't afford hotel rooms.

We just drive.

Yeah.

All night.

You end up showing up with all these drinks.

Old drink tickets in your pocket.

At the end of the.

I was doing trucker speed.

I was yellow jackets, but, That's the only way I could do it.

But, I came home for that tour just flat and lay down the bed.

Just shaking.

Like what?

Like what the just happened?

I was like, oh, it's the bumblebees.

But on that tour, the very last show that tour was, was in Chicago and, and, and Mark and Cindy had arranged for a booking agent who they worked with to come out and see us, but the rental company called billions.

Yeah.

So on this tour that we left, you know, when we I forgot to mention, when we go around and we that no one's coming to the shows really.

But when we get to Seattle we have like a little right up.

By the woman that became Chuck Klosterman his wife.

Okay.

And so we have a write up and now we play a show and there's like 150 people there.

Right.

And, and we made like $540.

Yeah.

Instead of 50 bucks.

And I was like we can afford to get home now.

Yeah.

And I think and maybe this maybe people are interested maybe.

But then we get to LA and Epitaph Records comes out and oh boy, we start things.

You know, there's just enough encouragement that like, this could actually end up working.

And.

Yeah, we ended up meeting the guys from Fat Possum, the label we ended up signing to on that trip.

And then the last show we're in Chicago and Bosch comes out and thanks to Cinemark and we'll come home from that with labels.

Bigger labels wanting us and a booking agent and not just a booking agent, a booking agent who booked my favorite bands, you know growing up like Pavement and John Spencer Blues Explosion.

Yeah.

Chicago was quite an epicenter at that time for a lot of.

Yeah, a lot of these bands and you know, labels and agents and everything else and stuff.

Yeah.

So yeah, that's that's the origin story pretty much summed up.

So when you said that, I mean, without Marc and Cindy and you know, this is the honest to God truth.

I mean, yeah, that said as well, in a way.

And then furthermore, like within a couple of weeks of that, they had Steve Popovic and Seymour Stein coming to the shows and there was something happening.

You know, we ended up signing with rather than signing with sire, we signed with a label in Mississippi, which is essentially, you know, we we just like, agreed to go stay in the minor leagues for a few years, which was good.

Yeah, because by the time we ended up going to a major label, there were we signed to a small subsidiary of Warner, and we were able to kind of still make records in our basement, and it was at our own kind of like frustration after five albums of doing that, that we were like, maybe we should.

Maybe it's us, not them.

Maybe we should try this a little differently.

And it just so happened that that kind of moment, this producer had reached out to us.

Danger mouse, who who at the time had the biggest song in the world, Crazy by Gnarls Barkley.

So he's experiencing this high level of success and he wants us to help him.

Right.

And Ike Turner comeback album.

So.

We we we I mean, why not?

Why not?

It's like, So anyway, we start doing that and, it's a slow process and, you know, at this time we're putting out a record every year.

And so we've been working that for a few months.

We haven't even got one track finished.

So, I, I flew to LA, To meet with Danger Mouse.

And I set a metaphor drink.

I was like, and I didn't even tell Dan I was doing this.

Well, you just produce a record for us with these songs and we'll do the stuff later.

And he said, sure.

And so then I was like, oh, yeah, that's all Dan and I, you know, did something.

I might have done something you like.

Are you cool with that?

He's like, yeah, sure.

So then we make a record with him and we learn so much.

We do it at Summa and Painesville and yeah, summa and that recently reopened summa.

Yeah.

With Paul on and that was, you know, kind of a turning point because when that record came out, I remember I was it we are on our first tour bus that we've ever had, six months, six years into touring.

So I'm like in a we had a day off.

I woke up in like Rock Springs, Wyoming.

Don't go there ever.

And, our tour manager is like, you have the number 14, our album on the Billboard charts.

Yeah.

And I was like.

And which I guess sounds insignificant now, but, to me, I was like, was what?

Yeah, 30,000 people bought the album this week, and, and then it was like, that was like the beginning of, you know, there's something going on.

And even then, you know, you have this whole thing that the dynamic in a band like this is the whole this is the reason why I'm interested in making music, because it's collaborative.

And part of that collaboration and stuff is, is having to deal with a lot of BS and ego and all kinds of stuff and getting through stuff together.

And so six, six months after this album comes out, I find out that Dan's going to release a solo album and I'm like, oh man, I think I might have just lost my job.

It's not like I have to be supportive, but I might not have a job.

And on top of that, all the money I just learned this year, I thought I was doing the responsible thing.

I put it in a mutual mutual fund and then the market tanked and I like, I just yeah, that's.

Yeah.

But anyway, Dan did a solo record and he got and I realized like, oh, he's going to get that out of the system.

And I and I and I do need the support of.

And he's not obligated to just make music with me.

So there's like a lot of learning happening.

And then we end up, you know, going to the studio, we make this hip hop record called black Rock.

That we put out like independently.

But it was it was so much fun to make this thing that we were like, now, okay, we're making music together.

It's fun that we then instantly within a week, we, we, we finished that record and we went to Muscle Shoals and we end up making our first hit album and and then that was just the beginning of the grind right there for the next four, 4 or 5 years.

Six years.

It was just so when you think about early Black Keys, you get it played in the radio.

This is pre Spotify.

This is still during the early stages of downloading.

Talk a bit about what it was like when you heard your first song on the radio, whether it was locally.

I mean obviously you guys got a fair amount of local play.

Talk a bit about what it was like, you know, doing that, like, what did it feel like hearing your stuff out there, whether now it's in commercials and stuff?

I mean, I mean, the first time I heard one of our songs on the radio outside of BBC or something, which is, you know, a whole different.

Yeah, component because we were getting BBC play from John Peel.

Yeah.

Way early on.

He loves you guys.

Yeah.

I think it was like, it was like university of California, Chico, really driving through Eureka and and and I'm like, I'm probably on track for speed and.

Yeah.

And I was going to the end.

I hear one of our songs Cutting Through and I'm like, what?

And I looked it up and yeah, do you hear that?

It's like weird.

Yeah.

Like very weird.

And put it back on our belt.

So, yeah.

But yeah, I mean, I think but early on, I mean, a lot of the promo stuff that we would do, we would be going to college radio stations and and a lot of the first, like, I mean, all the support we got early on for radio was public and community radio.

You know, like the current in Minneapolis or, I'm not sure which college it was.

One of the many in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Yes.

And then KCR, KSP, Kexp.

And then there's a great one.

I don't know if it's still around.

There was a great one in Denver, an Am station that was incredible.

But, you know, before we started the band, my girlfriend went to Oberlin, and I was the townee that was hanging out in Oberlin, but I would she had a radio show from like, 3 to 6 a.m.

on Wednesday nights, and I was drive up and just to go through the records in there.

What a resource.

Yeah.

You, you guys get along.

You've had a in in your touring recently.

You've added stage musicians.

We've had, we had as we added those guys, after we made our record brothers.

Yeah.

Because the thing is, when we made this record attack and released the first record we made with the instruments, the idea was like, that's not just a project.

Like we're a two piece band that's try to even level up a little bit because you're playing larger venues and you're also a two piece thing was out of necessity.

Yeah.

Initially we were a three piece actually.

We had my friend Gabe in the band and he's playing a synthesizer, but he quit the band essentially.

And, we, we tried to replace him.

We had like dog from the beach thing come down.

A few people come down to like, and it was like, this just be real.

Yeah.

Like this.

It's just going to be the two of us.

And it was probably the smartest thing we ever did.

But but, you know, now, if you ask me now what the most important component of a song is, I would say it's the bass.

Bass?

Yeah, yeah.

Which you guys didn't have an issue.

We didn't have.

Yeah, yeah.

And most music I listen to, I would say that that's the most obvious one.

So now we want to make a record that really didn't just have a bass guitar following the guitar.

Yeah.

So we eventually when we made brothers, it was like the songs were written like the, the black rock hip hop record.

When we made that, we were writing all the songs, bass and drums.

Exactly.

So we made brothers the same way, bass first with the drums and we had the tour.

So our first time ever playing with a four piece band was at Madison Square Garden, opening for, Pearl jam.

Yeah, we never that we could have done that differently.

On that note, I have to read something really quick.

We'll get back to Pearl jam.

This is the mid form.

We're supposed to read this, in a in a minute or two, we're going to be beginning the audience Q&A.

And for those just joining VR, a live stream radio audience, I'm John Panzer, president of Panzer Foundation and moderator for this forum.

I didn't write this, but it was written for me.

I'm joined on stage by Patrick Carney with The Black Keys, talking about his band's journey to success and what it will take to support musicians in today's entertainment industry.

We welcome questions from everyone City Club members, guests, students and those joining via our live stream at City club.org or live broadcast at 89.7 KSU Idea Stream Public Media.

If you'd like to text a question, please text it to (330)541-5794.

That's (330)541-5794, and the city club staff will try to work into the program.

And before I ask, do we have any questions?

I have one more question for you.

Okay.

So where are you in ten years, knowing where you started and, you know, beginning in the small club and working your way through in an ideal world, musically speaking, where are you in ten years?

I mean, I don't know how to answer that because I think the music industry has just changed so much in the last ten years.

And in the previous ten years.

And I think that the, kind of goal post the markers of success have all moved.

At one point when we at one point, like we had, like getting the number one album was like for some reason an important goal.

Yeah, because we had like a number three, number two.

And now I don't value that.

I don't value it at all.

I don't think it means anything.

I think the most important goal marker is, is a loyal fan base in music that resonates, whether that's playing to 200 people or 20,000 people.

Yeah.

And so like, those are the careers I look at, you know, like, people who have also managed to see, you know, stay creative and, and keep things moving along.

And.

Yeah.

So yeah, I, I don't, I don't know, I think that what my goal is like, you know, the goal with Dan and I like to feel creative and feel like we're having fun.

But it's always a grind.

Yes.

It's it's always hard work.

And I think, you know, if you're willing to do the work, it means you care enough about it that it's going to be worthwhile.

And so I like that.

Back in 2019, when I felt like we were going to the money printing factory versus, yeah, you know, that's when I was like the lowest about like where we're at.

And now it's like I, I think that's the true the true goals is just, you know, and it's like not even relevancy isn't even the goal because that's out of your control.

Yeah.

Well, you two guys who writes swamp blues.

So yeah relevancy is something that's I mean, you guys from the very start chose a, a genre that in and of itself is not necessarily mainstream in any, in any real way.

I mean, not at the time, especially we're all I mean, I'm listening to my playlist is psychotic.

But I think, you know, that's that's the fun part is like, when we do get in the studio, it's like we will find some commonalities, what we're into, and it'll be like a whole goal and maybe it will resonate, maybe it won't.

But, you know, I think, like back in, like, the peak of our career, it's more like, I'm like a lot of musicians, I think, get caught in the trappings of, like, I need to repeat that rather than be like, yeah, I can't believe that happened.

That's cool.

You know, there was a moment where that or that stuff was resonating and now, you know, it's it's different.

And I, I think, you know, culturally I see something happening that I think is really disturbing, which is, you know, I read somewhere that more music is released every day commercially now than in the whole year of 1989.

Yeah.

And the thing that I think is really disturbing is that I just read like 3 or 4 songs in the last year of Broken Records for the longest time spent in the top 100 and in the top ten.

So if you have more music coming out than ever, and the cycle that's spinning out the new music is getting frozen.

Just getting exposed to such a small amount of it.

Yeah, I think that culturally it's just so disturbing.

Yeah.

And I think that that goes beyond music.

You know, people get caught in the cycle news cycle or whatever it is, and they're missing.

Like while you're talking about this president guy, there have been forming monopolies all around you.

Yeah.

And buying media and narrowing everything that you're seeing.

And you're talking about this one stupid thing and everybody's getting screwed and the price of stuff is up.

Inflation's up.

It's like a little bit scary.

And then you have people saying like, don't worry, soon AI is going to get rid of like all these jobs.

But don't worry, we have plenty of TV shows for you to watch.

There's a lot of music and there's a lot of music that you haven't heard yet because we haven't been sharing it with you.

Can stockpiling it on that?

No, we're going to move to questions.

Did I go off the rails?

No, no, no really, there really are no rails.

So we'll move to questions.

I believe that there are microphones available on either side.

Please stand up and go to the microphone.

And, and I think we go back and forth and.

Pat, love your music.

I'm curious about the logistics of touring.

How do you decide which cities to tour, to go to?

Leaving aside the Live Nations issue that you discussed?

Well, depending, you know, if, like the tour we're doing next year, it was based on what cities we played this year.

But typically, You know, I mean, typically the way it works is, is your agent goes and solicits, offers to see who wants you the most.

And that's where the tour starts getting built around that.

I mean, because, you know, there's a lot of cities that we end up kind of scooting over, because the offers just aren't there.

But that's that's essentially it.

You know, your agent kind of figures out where that is, and, and you can do a little like, if you're a Bob Dylan or a Tom waits, you can get really picky in and choosy.

And sometimes we'll, we'll specifically want to route something into a tour, you know.

So that's it.

Thank you.

Just have a quick follow up.

How active is Cleveland in terms of soliciting?

Interest from bands like you to come play here?

Oh, I mean, I think Cleveland's always, always on our tours, you know, Yeah.

I mean, I don't know how to answer that, but.

Yeah, we're I mean, you know, we always try to.

The Midwest is kind of our our honey hole.

I got a question about the early album artwork.

I myself am a graphic designer.

I'm here with my brother, who's I'm always collaborating with.

You're starting off young.

You don't know what you're doing.

You got a brother who's doing graphic design.

He doesn't know what he's doing.

And you guys both rose to, like, such great success really early on.

Just a little bit about what that relationship was like, working with your brother and each finding each other's groove.

Yeah.

Good question.

Well, the first album, my brother took the photographs and then we sent them to the label who?

The guy wanted to lay it out.

And this was kind of the beginning, you know, of of something where he laid it out.

But he chose the wrong font or something or something.

And so he did part of the layout.

And then my brother, you know, he was like, I don't think it looks good.

So he scanned like Dark Side of the moon vinyl jacket in to put some wear on it.

That was the first time we made an album together.

And at that point we're like, well, we should just do it.

That's when we got like, you know, we were DIY musically, but they were like, we should just do everything.

So for the second record, we which was called Thick Freak, this we, we, put it out on Fat Possum and we, we wanted it to come out in the spring and the fat possum was said, if you want this out, we need everything.

Artwork.

By December 7th.

So it was like December 5th and we had no idea.

And my brother and I got in my car and drove to Kmart at like one in the morning.

And we just walk in through Kmart like we need it.

We need a concept.

And then I saw the Royal Crown Hair pomade.

Oh yeah.

And I think we we could do some of this and like like yeah, we could, we could do something with that.

So we went right back to my apartment and he lit it and shot my hand in it.

That's your hand in the picture.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

And so it was kind of always like that, you know, like like, you know, the brothers cover has gone down in history as like one of the most interesting album covers for the fact that it just says, well, it's a homage to, the cadet concept releases of, of, Muddy Waters record and a Hound Wolf record.

But that one we were struggling to figure out that records another deal where I was like, is do.

And then like the day before, it's do you just send us the text only and be like, there we go.

Just says, this is and he won a Grammy for it.

You want to know exactly.

Yeah.

The Grammy for a bunch is just literally words.

Yeah.

Next question.

Just wondering about the festival experience.

You mentioned the one where you made $1 million and that was good enough.

Yeah.

But talk about, how that's morphed over the years in the music business.

Thanks.

Oh, the point I mentioned that was just that, you know, at, at a point where we're, you know, getting paid, you know, it's a crazy amount of money.

We were still so fly that we were walking where you walk away from.

But, I mean, you know, I mean, the I don't really understand the question, but I guess I'll say, like, this summer, I mean, like, you know, the crowds kind of makes the show, you know, and like, and furthermore, the dynamic wit if Dan and I are in a good place together and we get in front of a horrible crowd, it doesn't really.

Yeah, matter.

But if we get in front of a great crowd, then it's it's remarkable.

This year we played Europe, we did the European tour and we had some amazing crowds.

And it was it was a grueling grind to to be on a bus for a month straight at 45 years old.

With the family.

But also it was like, I mean, whereas the hotel rooms were like, porta potties for a month, it's like, it's insane.

The Boy Scout camp is literally crazy.

And our days off rolling like cities that, you know, the only two hours there were lost.

Yeah.

But we had a great time, you know?

And so when it comes to I love playing festivals, especially ones that have good crowds, the Europeans seem to to come out in a way.

Yeah.

That's just unbelievable.

I think the best, the best two shows of the whole year for us.

I mean, blossom was great, but, we played a show in Valencia, Spain, and we went on at one in the morning and it was like 40,000 people who couldn't afford the beer.

They're freaking out.

Yeah, for an hour and a half.

And it was incredible.

On trucker speed.

I don't know what they were on, but they weren't on the beer.

They were not too expensive.

Yeah.

Yes.

I wanted to talk about something fun.

And that is, your videos seem to show a really great sense of humor that you have.

You know, that Wild Child video makes.

Cracks me up still today.

Maybe it's because both my parents are teachers, but, if you could talk about making videos and what you think about them.

Yeah, videos are always kind of a burden.

I don't think it's a good format.

I don't I mean, I have little kids, so like, let me show you some music videos.

And I was like, wait, these are all horrible.

Like there's a couple that are fine, but I mean, I'm like, this is really funny that this is like the whole, even you guys appearing in a music video is pretty bright.

I mean, it's it's I don't want to say you're dragged to it, but I don't.

Do you enjoy being in a music video?

No, but, I knew the answer to that already.

I yeah, I mean, most successful or most successful event music video that we ever made was for a song called Lonely Boy.

And, we hired Bob Dylan's son, Jesse Dylan to direct it, and it was starring Bob Odenkirk.

And, and and we shot this video for two days, and then we, we got the cut of it, and I was like, this.

I don't think this is very good.

And then there was this there was a scene where there was a guy who this ad libbed a dance, and somehow he had memorized the words to the whole song on what?

Here.

And at one time, the older guy two, like, just like.

Yeah, he's he was probably 40 at the time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Older guys.

Yeah.

They're toggles his name.

Anyway, he danced and was this just use that.

Yeah.

The whole video was him dancing.

Just use that.

Yeah.

And I swear like we did get pushed back for wanting to do that.

The certain people say that there was no push back, but there was.

And so then it came out of that was our most successful video.

And so we spent 80 grand making this video, and we could have just made it for like, like 300 bucks.

300 bucks.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And so the Wild Child video is another one of those rare dance.

Like, we should make a video.

I think we can make one more high budget video as an experiment just to see and I like so we did and then no one watched it.

So yeah, we will probably ever be doing that again.

Go ahead.

Hi.

Patrick, this is more an offer.

I'm with the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and it's never too late to come visit us.

Oh, right.

Hey, by the way, I heard if you're in a band, this true?

If you're on tour and you're in a band, just bring an album.

Bring an album.

They let you in for free.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

One day I look forward to going through it.

One day.

I heard that about hard Rock cafe.

That give you a cheeseburger if you're.

Yeah, if you're in a band and tour, they give you a cheeseburger.

Yeah.

And two drink tickets.

Let's go ahead.

I love pictures of you guys browsing in record stores because.

Very relatable.

You talked about Danger Mouse producing you and how important that was for your growth as an artist.

You both produce for other artists.

Do you get the same, thrill working for somebody else as you do recording your own stuff?

Good question.

Yeah, I think I used to produce more.

I've made records for my wife and for different bands and fans of, and I used to even have a label back in the day, but I, I kind of got turned off of it because, I think, you know, it's just it's so hard to kind of break through in the music world that I, I would just get so low down if I made something I thought was good, and and it went nowhere that I also there's a little bit of, like, kind of feel like I'm toying with like, like I don't want to.

I don't want to be.

I don't want to have my hands involved in someone else's dreams too much.

I'm happy to do it with my own stuff.

But yeah, like, let let someone who's doesn't mind tinkering their, I appreciate that.

Yeah, but I do love producing.

I have a studio at my house and but I mostly, you know, I, I get enough fulfillment working on the keys stuff and occasionally Dan will have me work on some.

He has a label called easy I. He'll have me come in and help do some mixing or something.

And so you know, him and I are very collaborative.

So I feel like I, you know, we've we've we're just putting the wraps on our 14 albums like not including black Rock.

So it's like, you know, that's that's a lot of albums.

That's more albums.

And like Pink Floyd.

Yeah.

And The Who and the Who and Pearl jam.

Yeah, it's like there's a lot of albums, so I'm pretty good on that.

Their albums are longer, but their albums are technically better and better.

But it doesn't matter.

Well, they're a lot better and make more money.

Yeah that's true.

They do.

Yeah.

So what makes a concert audience a great audience for you on stage?

Well, you know, there's like there's something that's been happening, especially at shows that are kind of maybe put together by a company.

The certain company have a named, Live Nation.

If you start, if you, if you fill the front of the room with the richest people, it maybe except here, but, I don't think that makes a very good concert experience in that sense of what's happened in a lot of these things where like the reserved seats, you know, there's a guy who's 15 rows or, yeah, a dude his girlfriend's texting the whole time.

Yeah.

You know, or they have their backs.

The stage is doing one of these things.

And I don't know, I think also I think, you know, especially if you go to England, you know, the mere fact that they have BBC six nationally and BBC two.

Yep.

I mean their playlist, you know, a lot of varied music.

You have Jools Holland.

I mean, I've been really into record collecting lately.

I mean, I always have it, but I've been way into it lately, especially 45.

And if you want to buy a good 45, it's almost always coming from Europe.

And I'm like, how is all of the good music?

It's all American music.

It's American music over there.

It's over there.

Yeah, yeah.

What's going on?

You ask yourself that because they're they're really exposed to a much deeper thing.

So the fans there are kind of I don't know, I think the fans have a much deeper understanding of music and a broader enjoyment of music too, like Gene read for them over in Europe is a very different thing than genres.

Here in the United States, where I think we're we're a little siloed and everything, and they're they're a little broader.

I mean, think of the festivals over in Europe quite often are just these bizarre, wonderful amalgams of when I was over there, when Taylor Swift was touring and it wasn't the same like thing.

It wasn't like, this is the greatest.

It was all Americans going over there, actually, like in Paris.

And and the tickets are cheaper.

Yeah, that's it was cheaper to some people.

Found it.

Yeah.

To fly there.

Yeah.

And actually see I was Hi.

So my name is unity as John knows, the Pennsylvania station sponsored me about two years ago.

So I just have a quick question.

So now that we're in the age of streaming, I and almost overwhelmingly accessible music at the tip of our fingers.

One thing I can say as an independent musician is that the industry has changed drastically.

Independent musicians aren't making as much money, especially from streaming, and things have shifted to surviving off of touring, merch sales, and local community support.

Thanks, John.

DIY is the spirit of the streets and the youth, yet payment can be dicey, especially if you don't have gear.

Insurance and guarantees from venues are negotiable if you have the proper representation.

So my question for you is what is the advice for smaller, independent musicians for finding booking agencies for the US?

In Europe?

Yeah, I think, you know, I mean, the best policy is to get out there and play is are getting people to come around locally.

But, you know, I think, you know, you have this you have the ability to have your music heard nationally or internationally now by a click of a button.

It's a it's a matter of like this question of how to get people to pay attention and listen to it.

Like some people will tell you to go dance on TikTok.

I'm not capable of that.

I'm not capable of much of the social media stuff.

I have heard of them being in a music video that, I don't really know the answer to it.

You know, I think it used to be, I said this other day and someone was really offended by this, but I, I think that like, and I'm not talking about Pitchfork or something, but like, a gate kept industry slightly where it's like back when in the 90s, if I got like the Touch and Go catalog, anything on there I'd want to listen to.

Yeah, it was, it was, you know, curated for me.

And now the curation is just it's just a mess.

I don't know what else is going on in like and but music is, you know, if I if you ask I get asked this all the time.

What do artistry listening to.

It's like a song hear a song there.

There's not really that many albums I'm listening to.

I have the attention span of an aunt just like everybody else.

I'm like, yeah, I don't even know what I'm listening to.

But like, I was, you know, I find myself getting into music that came out like whether it was 20 years ago, 50 years ago, like, you know, and I will have never heard it.

Like, how did I not never hear, like, psychic TV or whatever, like how I'm just I'm like 45 years late to this thing.

That's the beauty of music as far as being a new artist and stuff, I don't really feel qualified to even answer.

I, I don't even know how to get our music heard.

I don't even know how how that works, you know?

So it's like I we luckily have a fan base and I, you know, I think that like, you know, hopefully the music you make resonates with them.

But, you know, our biggest things that happened to us, that let us kind of get through was John Peel playing us on the BBC.

Sleater-Kinney taking us out on tour markets and helping us meet booking agents back, taking the stones to her back, you know, and how they heard the music record stores.

Yeah, they buy record store clerk.

Yeah, that was the best thing.

It might still be the best thing.

And just track the people you like, find out who books them.

I mean, find out who books the people you like over in Europe.

And if you see American bands heading over, find out who books them cold.

Call them cold, call them.

I also think of books.

I also think of booking agent as necessarily solution.

I mean, it's start, but it's, I mean, you have to be ready for the work because like when we first got our booking agent, it was like, this is going to be awesome.

Like, okay, here's your first show you're opening for the pie tasters who are they scab in?

Where's the show in Brooklyn.

Great.

What day?

Monday night.

You go on eight.

We drove eight hours to Brooklyn to open for a scab in a on a Monday night to ten people.

That's our first legit show.

Booked by vacation.

Yeah.

So don't do that.

We did it a lot.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

We kept going.

Like you're going to live forever.

And eventually you'll you'll be on.

We drove eight hours each way to open for Reverend Horton Heat in Champaign, Illinois.

And the first note, I hit the kick drum pedal and it's smashed.

Destroyed, disintegrated domestic violence to so I play like a mode sucker B the whole time that you know, that's the early that was happening a lot.

Yeah.

You know.

Yeah I got a big foot or I had a cheap pedal.

It was what it was a Cindy.

Hey, Patrick.

Hey.

I just want to add to the controversy and get you to tell us.

How did you guys have the audacity to fire Irving Azoff?

You knew she's going to ask.

Yeah, well, let's just say no comment.

No.

Oh.

Really?

Really not expecting you to just say no comment and then literally have no comment.

Well, Pat Carney, Patrick Carney, John Panzer, thank you so much for joining us at City Club today.

I'm Dan Moulthrop chief executive here.

And noting that forums like this one are made possible thanks to generous support from individuals like all of you, and great suggestions from people like John Panza.

You can learn more about how to become a guardian, a free speech at City club.org.

We'd like to welcome students joining us today from Davis Aerospace and Maritime High School.

Great to see you guys.

Also a special welcome to guests at tables hosted by Cleveland Rocks, Cuyahoga Community College, Glen Mead, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum, and the Panza Foundation.

Thank you all so much for being a part of this today.

Next week at the City Club on November 21st, we'll be joined by leadership at IBM and the Cleveland Clinic to discuss the new quantum computer deployed there.

That conversation will be moderated by WLKY's Betsy Kling.

You can learn more about that event and everything else coming up in the City Club at City club.org.

You can also find information on how to become a member there as well.

Thank you so much for being a part of this forum today.

Thank you for being here.

Have a great weekend and be sure to take in some live music.

Thank you.

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