- Everything I've gone through in life has led me to this moment.

KATE: Meet Emmanuel Acho, a former NFL player and current sports analyst who wants to have a conversation with you.

ACHO: I realized that my voice was my sword.

KATE: Growing up the son of Nigerian immigrants from Dallas, Texas, Emmanuel's career path has been a unique one, but it was the murder of George Floyd that changed his trajectory forever.

EMMANUEL: After George Floyd was murdered, that's when I said, "Y'all not getting it done.

It's time for me to do something."

KATE: Today, New York Times bestselling author and the creator of Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man is taking me to his favorite restaurant in all of LA.

This is a wow.

(laughs) With a breathtaking view of the city of angels.

EMMANUEL: I literally come here once a week.

KATE: We sit down to one amazing meal.

Wow.

Thank you.

That looks incredible.

Emmanuel is sharing what it means to have an uncomfortable conversation.

Do you think it's uncomfortable for Black people to talk about race with white people?

SERVER: Sorry to interrupt.

KATE: (laughter) Talk about going deep.

(laughter) And we're learning how we can all have more authentic, meaningful conversations with the people around us of all races.

EMMANUEL: You're calling will call you, just pick up.

♪ KATE: What's better in life than a bottle of wine, great food and an amazing conversation?

My name is Kate Sullivan and I am the host of To Dine For .

I'm a journalist, a foodie, a traveler, with an appetite for the stories of people who are hungry for more.

Dreamers.

Visionaries.

Artists.

Those who hustle hard in the direction they love.

I travel with them to their favorite restaurant, to hear how they did it.

This show is a toast to them and their American dream.

KATE: To Dine For with Kate Sullivan is made possible by... ♪ Announcer: There are people in your life who count on you for what matters most.

American National agents are close to home and committed to our communities.

They'll help you find the right coverage for you, your family, even your farm and business.

You can learn more at americannational.com.

KATE SULLIVAN: Today, I'm in Beverly Hills, California on the roof of the Waldorf Astoria at one of the most stunning restaurants in all of LA, but it's the person who chose this as their favorite restaurant that I can't wait for you to meet.

He's a dreamer, a visionary, and he's just getting started.

♪ EMMANUEL: Hello, hello.

KATE: Emmanuel, how are you?

EMMANUEL: How are you?

KATE: It's so nice to meet you.

EMMANUEL: Emmanuel.

KATE: Thank you so much.

EMMANUEL: Of course.

So you're taking in all the sight.

KATE: I'm taking in this amazing view.

EMMANUEL: I did not lead you astray.

KATE: You did not.

EMMANUEL: I promise I didn't lead you astray.

KATE: This is so fabulous.

What you've heard about Beverly Hills is exactly what you get.

With its opulent estates, palm tree lined streets, lavish hotels, and chic shopping, this town of the rich and famous lives up to its glistening reputation.

And 12 floors above it all is the perfect place to take it all in, The Rooftop by JG.

When I walked out, I was like, "This is a wow."

Wow.

And I could see that.

We haven't eaten anything.

We're just taking in the view.

EMMANUEL ACHO: The crazy thing is, I literally come here once a week and sometimes I'll come here every weekend and I will just sit by myself.

KATE: It's not surprising Emmanuel comes here regularly.

Take a look at this view.

The Rooftop by JG is a completely al fresco dining experience right on top of the iconic Waldorf Astoria hotel.

California sunshine meets luxury in this venue that feels like you're dining in an elevated garden outfitted with jade colored furniture, lush greenery, and a living wall.

This is the place to be.

STEVE BENJAMIN: It's very difficult to have both things on the rooftop.

You have the view, but the food's not following up, or you have the food, but you don't have the views.

So actually with that place, we try to balance both.

KATE: The cuisine at the rooftop is classic California with a kick.

The all day menu is based off some of the best signature dishes served up at Jean-Georges restaurants in New York City.

Each dish is adapted to incorporate the fresh produce of the West Coast.

BENJAMIN: The food can be a crispy sushi, can be a tuna tartare, can be a lobster burger.

We build this French fry caviar, is a simply french fry with a lot of caviar on top with some eggs.

Pretty unique.

KATE: There are an assortment of flavors from Latin America and Southeast Asia, combining New York flare and California fresh.

It's a tough choice what to pick on this menu.

BENJAMIN: We're always trying to bring all the senses.

Everything's going to make the eyes attractive and after we're playing with the palate and all the senses.

KATE: Perched above Beverly Hills over crispy sushi and lobster burgers, yes, I said lobster burgers, I'm dining with a man who is changing the way our country talks about race, a 30-year-old, who found himself in the spotlight when he realized his unique identity in our society could serve a much bigger purpose.

This is truly stunning.

I'm wondering though, of all the restaurants in L.A. that you could have chosen, why here?

EMMANUEL ACHO: The energy is great.

It's elegant, but it's not too stuffy.

You go to some restaurants that are elegant and it's incredibly stuffy, but you can come in jeans.

You can come in a suit.

KATE: It's not just about the food or the location, sometimes it's about how a restaurant makes you feel.

EMMANUEL: In this area of Beverly Hills, you don't often see some people that look like me, right?

You don't necessarily see just a ton of Black people whether it be by happenstance or whether it be by you know historically socioeconomic status and trying to traverse and ascend um, the limitation that this country has put certain people in, not to get too deep, but you just don't.

So when you come here, you see a variety of colors and cultures, and I like that as well.

Because you go to some fancy steakhouses in L.A. or anywhere in the world, and you just see one demographic of people.

KATE: Mm-hmm.

EMMANUEL: But here, even if we were to look around right now, you see Asian American, you see Indian American, you see Black American, you see White American.

And for me, it just makes me feel welcome.

KATE: That's important.

EMMANUEL: It's huge.

KATE: It's a subtle thing, but an incredibly important thing.

EMMANUEL: Yes.

And like, especially in this day and age, I don't even know how subtle it is anymore.

Now for me, it's just gotten to a point of importance.

It's gotten to a point of like it's good to see people that look like me where I am.

KATE: Yeah.

You grew up in Dallas, Texas.

The son of Nigerian immigrants.

EMMANUEL: Correct.

KATE: What was that dichotomy like growing up in Dallas, growing up with your parents?

EMMANUEL: Thank you so much.

SERVER: You're welcome.

EMMANUEL: Dichotomy is a perfect word because you grow up in America and in Dallas, Texas.

I went to an affluent high school called St. Mark's, all boys private school.

The school is predominantly White, but at home, it's Nigerian culture.

So I'm eating goat meat.

I'm eating rice and stew.

I'm eating pounded yam.

I'm eating plantain and listening to Nigerian music, going to Nigerian small groups.

But then you go to school and again, it's predominantly White.

KATE: Right, and it's the Dallas Cowboys and it's barbecue.

EMMANUEL: Yes.

It's different.

KATE: It's Texas.

EMMANUEL: So I had to kind of be a master of fitting in to different places, which honestly, has served me well, I guess, in this day and age, because now I, I too have been able to, kind of like a chameleon, be able to blend in different spaces and different places.

Dichotomy is a perfect word.

KATE: How did that affect you?

I'm sure you identified as all these things, but you didn't quite apparently fit the bill enough for other people.

EMMANUEL: Sorry I'm distracted by how amazing this food looks.

SERVER: So this is the crispy sushi rice with the assorted fish on top here for you and then the tuna tartare with the ginger soy American dressing.

EMMANUEL: Perfect.

KATE: This looks incredible.

EMMANUEL: It does.

Thank you.

People are probably too nervous to eat typically, but I'm hungry.

KATE: Okay.

Me too.

EMMANUEL: So I will be eating and talking.

KATE: Me too.

EMMANUEL: Yeah.

I would say the two things that are- KATE: Oh, wow.

EMMANUEL: I know.

I know.

The flavor.

KATE: The flavor.

I might need a moment here.

EMMANUEL: It's amazing.

It truly is.

Wait, I'm going to take another bite and then I'll get to it.

KATE: Wow, the ginger, the soy.

That's really, really delicious.

EMMANUEL: How did it affect me?

KATE: Yeah.

EMMANUEL: I think I had an identity crisis growing up.

I didn't really know who I was because all of my white friends are telling me I'm not Black Black.

You're Black, but you're not Black.

You're not that Black.

Then I would go to church in inner city area in Dallas, in Oak Cliff and predominantly Black.

But now, I didn't feel comfortable because I was Black by skin color, but not by culture.

I'm Nigerian culture and I don't think our country has done a good enough job of identifying the difference between color and culture.

KATE: What do you think were the unwritten rules of growing up with your mom and dad?

And was there a prevailing value or a prevailing rule that everyone had to follow?

EMMANUEL: Getting a C on a report card wasn't even like an option- Nigerian culture, you must be a doctor.

You must be a lawyer.

You must be an engineer.

It was forged.

What?

KATE: You had to be successful.

You had to be driven.

EMMANUEL: There was a saying, Naija no dey carry last.

Naija, Nigerians.

No dey carry last, don't come in last place.

It's the saying all amongst Nigerian culture.

KATE: Excellence.

EMMANUEL: It's excellence.

If you imagine the game of tetherball and there's a ball attached to the rope which is attached to the pole, and regardless of how you hit it and where it moves, it comes back to the pole because it's attached to the pole.

My pole, if you will, that I am attached to if I were the ball is my faith, my Christianity, and being a Nigerian.

So regardless of how life has moved me in this tetherball, if you will, I still end up circling those things.

KATE: And it was your ability to be in all those different spaces that has led you to every moment of your life right now.

EMMANUEL: Bingo.

Funny you said that because I've said that, but I don't think I've said it publicly.

KATE: Yeah.

EMMANUEL: So I'm like, "How did you know to say that?"

When I think about playing in the NFL, I didn't do that to accumulate a ton of money.

I think everything I've gone through in life has led me to this moment and quite literally, has led me to June 1st 2020 when I dropped Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man.

KATE: Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black man, it sounds uncomfortable, right?

Well, that's the point.

In late May 2020 as the country processed the murder of George Floyd, Emmanuel found himself doing the same.

EMMANUEL: George Floyd had just been murdered, I want to say three days prior.

And I'm sitting in my room in Austin, Texas.

Lived in Austin at the time.

I set up my iPhone in front of me.

I'm in a black Lululemon shirt and I'm just sitting in front of the camera because Kate, I was tormented.

I knew I had a responsibility to speak as a human being but I'm a sports analyst, so what the heck am I going to say?

KATE: What he said next and posted to his Twitter account may just have been exactly what we all needed to hear.

EMMANUEL: And I'm a sports analyst.

These people don't want to see me tweeting about anything racial.

Anytime I put out a tweet, they're just going to roll their eyes and keep scrolling.

But my life would be wasted if all I ever did was debate Jordan and LeBron and who's better, if all I ever did was break down a "cover two defense" and what that means because all of that stuff means nothing.

It actually means nothing when people are unnecessarily dying.

KATE: How did the death of George Floyd affect you personally enough to galvanize you into a totally different direction?

EMMANUEL: I think the murder of George Floyd was my breaking point and not breaking point in the sense of, I now had an anxiety attack, panic attack, but it was my breaking point of, okay, actually now is time to get in the fight.

I let police officers do it and I let activists do it and I let the world do it, but finally, after George Floyd was murdered, that's when I said, "Y'all not getting it done.

It's time for me to do something."

Now, the question is what is that something?

KATE: Right.

EMMANUEL: I realized that my voice was my sword.

I sit in front of my camera in my room and all I say is, dear white brothers and sisters, we need your help.

I record this video and I just pour out my heart.

I don't really make notes.

I always talk off the top of my head.

I don't read through questions.

That video had 2.2 million views in a matter of, maybe a day.

So I said, "Okay, we have ears.

We have hearts.

People are listening."

I only had, I don't know, 30,000, 40,000 followers on Twitter at the time, so if it went 2 million views, there's something.

KATE: It certainly was something that got our nation's attention, and it was just the start for Emmanuel.

EMMANUEL: So then I called my friend who's a wedding videographer.

I called my best friend.

True story, true story.

I called my best friend who was an Olympic gold medalist in the 4 by 100 meters of Rio, and I said, "Please stand in as my producer.

You stand in as my editor and videographer."

I rented an all white studio space in Austin.

I sat in the chair for 9 minutes and 27 seconds and 25 million views in two days, my whole world changed and I realized I could change the world.

KATE: Emmanuel's path was to field questions from white people that they haven't felt comfortable asking a Black man.

His goal, to use his voice to create a safe space to talk race and start conversations about racism, slavery, and inequality in America without judgment or fear of asking the wrong thing.

EMMANUEL: It was simple, but it was very difficult.

So Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man was going to be called Questions White People Have because it was very literal.

White people have questions.

I know.

Sorry, ya'll do.

I know white people have questions because I hung out with all white people growing up.

KATE: Right.

Why was it important to call it uncomfortable conversations?

Why not just conversations with a Black man?

(chuckles) EMMANUEL: Number one, uncomfortable is catchier.

Number two, uncomfortable is more authentic.

KATE: Why is race so uncomfortable?

EMMANUEL: Nobody talks about it.

KATE: Why not?

EMMANUEL: Let's be real.

KATE: Please.

EMMANUEL: I would honestly say that my white brothers and sisters are ill-equipped to talk about race in America.

You're truly equipped to what you have exposure to and authentic exposure to.

In America, I as a Black man, can't go really anywhere on any day without seeing white people.

You as a white woman can.

Black people in this country have more experience talking about race because they understand race because they deal with other races more frequently, in general, than white people.

KATE: When you say "Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man", it is truly, you're really inviting in a white perspective into your conversations.

You're not talking to other Black people.

EMMANUEL: No, not at all.

KATE: You're talking to white people.

EMMANUEL: You don't realize, know your audience.

KATE: Right.

EMMANUEL: My audience is truly my white brothers and sisters.

KATE: Yeah.

EMMANUEL: Hold for amazing food.

KATE: Oh, my goodness.

Wow.

Thank you.

That looks incredible.

This is your order.

EMMANUEL: Yeah.

A lobster burger.

You can't get a lobster burger everywhere.

Yeah, you can take this.

KATE: Let's talk about your book.

It hit the New York Times.

EMMANUEL: Debuted at number one.

KATE: Congratulations.

EMMANUEL: Thank you.

KATE: That's amazing.

EMMANUEL: It's crazy.

KATE: Why did you write it?

[sighs] EMMANUEL: I had to.

I recently read a quote by Neil deGrasse Tyson, and I'm going to paraphrase it because I may butcher it if I try to go direct.

But he said, what I do, I do out of duty, not necessarily a desire.

Because if I can do something and I can do it better than other people, I would be morally irresponsible not to.

KATE: Mmn.

EMMANUEL: So when you ask why'd you write "Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man", why have you entrenched yourself in racial reconciliation, it's not that I want to, it's that I have to.

KATE: It is your calling.

EMMANUEL: I have to.

KATE: Emmanuel's first book, "Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man" was an instant number one bestseller.

His goal was to expand on his video series, delivering a straightforward dialogue for those seeking answers about race.

But he didn't stop there.

In the same year, he set out to write a second book, "Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Boy", aimed at opening the conversation about systemic racism to young people.

EMMANUEL: So why did I write Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Boy?

One, because I had to.

I believe this.

If you want it to affect the trees, you could pluck down the leaves, you could cut down the branches, but especially affect the root.

And children are the root of racism in our society.

So why are we going to sit here and try to put a Band-Aid on something that needs reconstructive surgery?

Let's address the root.

KATE: Emmanuel's video series and books didn't just catch the attention of everyday Americans.

Once his message started spreading, it didn't take long for some big names to ask to participate in his uncomfortable conversations.

In the last year, Chelsea Handler, Matthew McConaughey, Chip and Joanna Gaines, and Roger Goodell have sat down with Emmanuel to talk race and get their questions answered.

So is this like a manifesting thing or is it a sense of your own destiny?

EMMANUEL: I didn't manifest it.

I think it was, I just answered the call.

KATE: Mmn.

EMMANUEL: I'm now in my calling.

I'm not really all that special.

I just picked up.

I've gotten a call from three no caller ID numbers over the last year.

The first one was Matthew McConaughey.

He calls me and he's like Acho, McConaughey speaking.

I want to have a conversation.

This is after my first episode of Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man.

The second one a week later was from Oprah Winfrey.

EMMANUEL: The third one was from the commissioner of the NFL, Roger Goodell.

KATE: Wow.

EMMANUEL: I said that "like life, you're calling will call you, just pick up."

KATE: So you don't have to look for the calling.

EMMANUEL: It will call you.

KATE: It will call you.

EMMANUEL: It will call you.

McConaughey called me.

Oprah called me.

Goodell called me.

Like you're calling will call you.

Now, it might be not in a dramatic fashion like mine was from no caller ID numbers.

KATE: Yeah I never pick up a no caller ID.

EMMANUEL: You should start.

KATE: I should start.

EMMANUEL: Generally, I don't recommend this to everybody.

Do not pick up no caller ID numbers.

Don't do it.

So often in life people chase.

I don't know what to do.

I don't know what I'm good at.

I don't know X, Y, or Z.

And I'm like, the issue wasn't will you get called, the issue is will you answer the call.

KATE: Well, those are three amazing calls to pick up.

So that begs the question, what do you think you're calling is?

EMMANUEL: My calling is to be a bridge of reconciliation in our society.

I'm not the smartest person in the world by any means, but...

I have an ability to empathize.

I say that confidently because I know what I'm really bad at.

I'm in a moment right now where so many crazy things are happening, but I'm a man on a mission.

So I'm not really getting distracted by any of it because that wasn't the goal.

KATE: Right.

EMMANUEL: The goal was never to talk to Obama.

The goal was never to talk to Oprah.

The goal was never to talk to McConaughey.

The goal was never to talk to any of these people.

The goal was to reconcile.

KATE: Well let's start there then.

Let's say you have a white man who has a coworker who's Black and he really wants to have an uncomfortable conversation with a Black man, but isn't sure that that Black man wants to have an uncomfortable conversation with him.

The emotion of it, the sense of you're on two different wavelengths as far as history and understanding and who knows, what would you encourage and what would you say to that white man who wants to have that conversation with a Black man and knows it could be a land mine?

EMMANUEL: The first thing I would do is start with humility like, "Hey, I just wanted to come to you and say that I want to be better for you, for myself, for this world.

KATE: Right.

EMMANUEL: If you have the energy, if you have the emotional bandwidth, I'd love to just sit and talk with you for a minute just so I can learn about your experience, so I could better help people that don't look like me."

The Black person could say no.

KATE: Right, but that's a really nice in.

EMMANUEL: It is.

KATE: This burger is so good.

It's almost like a crab cake on a burger.

I would never have thought to put this altogether, but the flavor is amazing.

EMMANUEL: It's amazing.

KATE: Yeah, amazing.

EMMANUEL: Good, old lobster burger.

It'll change your life.

KATE: So I'm originally from Massachusetts and I love lobster and I have never had a lobster burger, so thank you.

EMMANUEL: You're welcome.

KATE: Since you've embarked on this journey with Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man, I'm sure you've done a lot of your own research, reckoning, education.

What have you learned about race in America over the past year doing what you're doing?

EMMANUEL: If no one hears anything else from this interview, they should probably hear this from this conversation, if you will.

I don't think white people, generally speaking, are racist.

I would say that the majority of white people are racially insensitive or racially ignorant.

In our judicial system, we have degrees of murder.

First degree racism, premeditated, owning slaves, saying the N word maliciously.

Second degree racism, a crime of passion.

Think George Floyd.

KATE: Right.

EMMANUEL: It was motivated in part due to him being Black.

But then you get involuntary racism, and I think that's where the majority of my white brothers and sisters fall into.

Emmanuel, you're so smart for a Black guy.

Oh, my gosh.

You're so pretty for a Black woman.

You're Black, but you're not like those other Blacks.

I think that's the majority of where we fall in in society and that's what I realized in the last year, but it is the third degree racism that will kill because the first and second are easy to spot.

KATE: Right.

Right.

You notice I haven't even brought up that you played football one day, a while back.

EMMANUEL: I love that.

KATE: What do you think you learned the most from your time in the NFL?

EMMANUEL: Resilience.

KATE: How so?

EMMANUEL: I was cut 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 times prior to the age of 25.

To put that in layman's terms, well, I was also drafted and I was traded.

Layman's terms, you got hired by an organization.

You were transferred to another organization and you were fired and rehired by that organization five times before the age of 25.

KATE: Wow.

EMMANUEL: So I had to just constantly be resilient and just constantly be like, "Okay, Emmanuel, find another way."

In life, one door will get you into where you want to go.

The kicker is finding the door.

KATE: Did you enjoy playing in the NFL?

EMMANUEL: I enjoyed the camaraderie.

I enjoyed the friendships.

I enjoyed the team aspect.

I didn't enjoy the game.

But what's funny, I had to play football because if I don't play football, then I don't have that cultural understanding because remember, I was raised in Nigerian culture, but went to school with all white people.

So now you got to get your Black culture in.

I got it in college but then there's a different aspect of it in the NFL.

KATE: Yes.

EMMANUEL: So without playing in the NFL, I don't go to the hood in Philadelphia.

I played for the Eagles.

I don't go to the hood in Philadelphia on Thanksgiving and spend Thanksgiving with my homeboy's grandma who lived in Philly.

KATE: Interesting.

So you really got the American Black experience by playing in the NFL.

EMMANUEL: Correct.

KATE: You wouldn't have had it otherwise.

EMMANUEL: In the NFL and in college.

KATE: That ability and all of those different paths led you to this moment to be able to create Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man.

EMMANUEL: Correct.

Correct.

KATE: Fascinating.

Well, thank you for this amazing conversation.

I was waiting for something uncomfortable, (laughs) but nothing came up.

We're going to have to have another conversation with uncomfortable.

EMMANUEL: Exactly.

KATE: Thank you for this.

EMMANUEL: Thank you.

KATE: Talk about a fabulous meal in a truly stunning location.

I really enjoyed my meal with Emmanuel Acho.

I was ready for an uncomfortable conversation with a Black man, but that's not exactly what happened today.

There's something about knowing.

You can ask awkward and imperfect questions without fear of being judged or attacked, it is really powerful.

Emmanuel wants people to talk more, to ask more questions, to have more real conversations, especially the uncomfortable ones, because honestly, how can we get better?

How can we ever understand each other?

How can we create a more loving and united world without first talking to each other?

KATE: If you would like to know more about the guests, the restaurants, and the inspiring stories of success, please visit todinefortv.com or follow us on Facebook and Instagram at To Dine For TV.

We also have a podcast, To Dine For the podcast is available on apple podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts.

To Dine For with Kate Sullivan is made possible by... Announcer: There are people in your life who count on you for what matters most.

American National agents are close to home and committed to our communities.

They'll help you find the right coverage for you, your family, even your farm and business.

You can learn more at americannational.com.

♪