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(upbeat music) (bell dings) - Hello and welcome to the City Club of Cleveland, where we're devoted to conversations of consequence that help democracy thrive.

Today's Friday, April 21st.

I'm Dan Moulthrop.

I'm Chief Executive here and I'm the moderator for today's dialogue.

Two years ago, Secretary of State Antony Blinken appointed Ambassador Gina Abercrombie-Winstanley as the Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer for the Department of State.

She's the first person to hold that role.

And when she took the role, she knew there was a great deal of work to do.

A 2020 report from the Government Accountability Office revealed discernible differences in promotion outcomes for racial and ethnic minorities as compared to their white counterparts.

Women and racial and ethnic minorities held only a small percentage of executive roles.

In an internal survey of State Department employees, 44% of respondents reported experiencing discrimination and 27% reported harassment.

That report was a snapshot of the State Department just three years ago.

Now, there's a certain irony here that the cabinet department tasked with building bridges and forging connections with non-white cultures around the globe should have such significant internal challenges with diversity.

But of course, on another level, this isn't surprising.

The State Department was the first department of the executive branch to be established.

Thomas Jefferson was the first Secretary of State, and following him, there would be a 200 year string of white men in the role until Madeleine Albright took the post to 1997.

She was succeeded by Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice, the only individuals of color to hold the office.

That's some broad historical context to keep in mind.

More specifically though, is the biography of our guest today, which made her the ideal candidate to serve as the State Department's first Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer.

Ambassador Abercrombie-Winstanley is a career diplomat with more than three decades in the State Department, beginning with a stint in the Peace Corps where she served in Oman.

She's been stationed throughout the Middle East in Baghdad, Jakarta, Cairo, and Saudi Arabia, where she played key roles in diplomacy and national security.

In 2012, President Barack Obama nominated her to serve as the US Ambassador to the Republic of Malta.

A role she held until 2016.

She not only knows the work of the State Department, she knows what it means to be a successful Black woman in the State Department.

I could go on.

She's won awards for her work.

She's mentored a number of up and coming diplomats.

She is in every way, extremely impressive.

She's also a graduate of Cleveland Heights High School, a good friend of the City Club's and a great friend of mine.

My friends, please join me in welcoming Ambassador Gina Abercrombie-Winstanley.

(attendees clapping) So let's start at the beginning.

- Okay.

- Why did the State Department, I mean, I outlined some ideas about why the State Department needed a Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer, but why did the State Department need one, or why did it take until this administration to establish one?

- Well, we have certainly worked on the issues of inclusion, diversity, equity, and accessibility long before I came into this position.

But the facts, the numbers that you put out there, the GAO report, which made very clear that over 80% of our senior positions are held by people from one demographic group.

The majority are held by men.

And that reality does not reflect America.

Does not reflect our nation or the capabilities of those of us who serve to reach those positions.

And so this administration, this president, this secretary of state said, "We've gotta fix this."

We are an organization full of brilliant people.

They told us that when they hired us, and our mothers told us.

We believe it.

So if we are so smart, why can we not resolve this issue?

And so that was why they decided to make an office with a team and a budget and resources and backing to resolve this issue.

To put the foundations in.

And because I knew he was serious and he wanted someone who was serious and energetic, and I'm delighted.

I recall when we, when I was announced, he said, "She's known to not always be diplomatic."

And I thought to myself, yes, good.

I can really get something done.

I don't have to be nice about it all the time.

He was serious so we're making change.

- Madam Ambassador, there was also, in many ways, this was a dream job for you.

This was a job that you and I have had conversations about this, that if you were to go back to when you came back to Cleveland in 2016, 2017, and were thinking about the work that remains at the State Department, if you could have created a job for yourself in a hypothetical future administration, this would've been it.

- This would've been it, yeah.

Yeah.

I know many of us are not so lucky to have this sort of opportunity of knowing exactly what you want to do and having the circumstances working to put the circumstances in place.

And there are many of us out there now in the private sector and in other federal agencies who are doing chief diversity and inclusion work.

Everyone does not have the same platform.

Everyone does not have the same resources or team.

And so you've got to fight for all of that when you are pursuing your dream.

So I helped put some of it in place, but it was the right time, right place.

- I have to imagine that over 30 years in State Department that there were, as a Black woman, there were many, many times when you faced challenges where you might have thought, why am I even bothering?

Why am I committed to this?

What kept you going?

- Yeah.

If I am perfectly honest, over 30 years, until this position, no, there was not a time that I thought, why am I bothering?

- Really?

- No.

And I have been fired three times during the course of my career at the Department of State.

So there are times when I was demoralized or thought that the pressures to not have me there were stronger than I was.

But that was always very short-lived.

And the mission, the fact that we are public servants, that we are doing things that help improve the lives of Americans and other people around the world, there is no more important mission in the world.

And so most of us, vast majority of us who work for the Department of State who work in diplomacy, feel that way.

There's no, I will pay to do this job.

And I've always felt that way.

Now, in this position, there have been some mornings when I thought ah.

And that is, a lot of introspection in my career.

I've mostly focused on the Middle East and trying to help parties in the region reach a peaceful place so that they, all the brilliance that is there in the region can flourish.

But the reality is, I didn't have skin in that game.

I have people I know that are friends that I love, but I don't have personal skin in that game.

In this one I do.

So when my colleagues see things that are wrong and or unfair or must be changed, and they still say, no, that is demoralizing.

- And that's happened.

- That.

(Dan laughing) How-- (Dan and audience laughing) How diplomatic of you.

(Dan and audience laughing) Let's talk about the work.

- Okay.

- When you came into this role as Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer, and you had a mandate to make the State Department a more welcoming place, a place where, regardless of your background, you could find that you belong.

How do you go about doing that inside of a 200 year old institution?

- Well, the bad news or the good news, depending on your mood that day, is that there's lots to be done.

So there are many different avenues to address to make change that people can feel.

And I remind my team and others who come into my office or email, text, call, somehow get the news to us that, oh my gosh, we're so glad you're here.

You're fighting the fight.

Thank you.

So we get a lot of love from the building and outside.

Outside as well.

But people are resistant to change even when they know it needs to be changed.

It's hard to do that.

And I tell people that it didn't take two years an administration, 50 years to get where we are now, and it's going to take time to move us out of it.

That many brilliant, focused, intent, intentional people put in place what we have right now that keeps women, brown people, people with disabilities from being able to meet their full potential.

And it's gonna take twice that to change it.

Okay?

(audience clapping) So that knowledge, you must hold.

It took a lot of energy to get here and it's not gonna be easy to undo it, but.

- [Dan] So how do you undo it?

- So, step by step, different things that we've done in the last two years.

Number one, setting up the office, putting a Chief Diversity Officer in place, making sure that it was known that it is a C-suite position, seventh floor in our building, as we say, reporting directly to the Secretary.

So that sent the signal out to everyone, oh, this matters.

The Secretary ensured that I sit on the committees that select chief of missions, ambassadors, deputy chiefs of mission, principal officers.

Oh, that means you've got the attention of leadership or those who want to be in leadership.

So then people-- - So they gave you the chair at the table.

You didn't have to bring the folding chair.

- I didn't, I don't know what folding chairs are, no.

I like to sit on the table.

But again, this, you know, my energy and focus, but the Secretary's leadership to put this in place because it could have been done in previous administrations and was not.

So all of that set the stage for people to understand the importance.

One of the first things we did was remove our version of what is popularly known as a non-disclosure agreement.

This came up during campaigns, and I won't mention any candidates that got a little bit embarrassed by having them, but we were not trying to protect perpetrators.

We did not want people to feel like they couldn't talk about what happened to them or worse, because they didn't talk about it, and it happened to somebody else from the same person, and nobody would know.

So people can talk about it.

So we did that.

We ensured that this burden of increasing inclusion and accessibility and equity and diversity was not just on the shoulders of the people who were fighting the battles.

On the shoulders of women, on the shoulders of brown people and black people, and people with disabilities or differences of any sort.

We made the change so that if you want to be considered for promotion in the Department of State, you must be able to document what you are doing to support diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility.

This is how you are judged for promotion.

So that means, my allies who are not female or minority, are also interested in being able to show I'm doing good work on this.

Then we have to make sure that it's clear that the I part is the focus.

Inclusion.

I have had to explain because many have assumed that as a Black woman, I'm only interested in furthering Black women, professionally.

That is not my job.

I'm certainly interested in furthering the opportunities for those who are, in black and white, clearly underrepresented in our organization.

That is women of all sorts, African Americans and Hispanics.

Those are the three groups that are least represented compared to their percentage of the population in our building.

So while that might be who I have always at the back of my head, how can I remove barriers for those groups?

The inclusion part is for everything.

So one of the changes we made in the last year, we have a senior position, many senior positions of course, but Deputy Assistant Secretary is the title of the position.

It's senior.

You go from that position to being a chief of mission or a principal officer or a DCM.

You come from that position and from a DAS you could go out and be an ambassador.

So it's a very important stepping stone.

As I look through the regulations and my really important message to everyone in your career, know your system.

I looked at the regulations for how DASs are selected.

And I've been a DAS.

Now, I became a DAS because a friend told me an opening was happening and I stalked the assistant secretary until he hired me.

But I looked at what was written, and in black and white, in this august 200 plus year old institution that says it is made up of the best of the best.

And we're all where we are because of merit only.

Merit only.

So 83% of senior positions being held by European Americans alone, that's merit, right?

60 plus percent of positions being held by men, even though women are the majority of the population, that's merit.

But I found out that deputy assistant secretary positions, in black and white, we wrote are neither advertised nor competed.

Take a moment with that.

So, (Ambassador chuckles) right, you got that job by somebody tapping you on the shoulder.

From somebody knowing you, liking you, having worked with you before or you had the connection to get in for an interview, but the people getting the tap on the shoulder least likely were women and minorities.

But every white male is not in the in crowd, right?

So inclusion, we changed that.

All of those positions are now advertised and openly competed.

The first person, (audience clapping) yeah.

The first person to benefit from that came up to me and said, "I really want to thank you.

I saw this advertisement.

I didn't know anything about it, but I didn't know anyone in the front office.

But I put my hand in the ring and I went and interviewed for it and I got it.

And I'm really sorry because I don't think I'm in your demographic as a white guy."

And I said, you are my demographic.

Inclusion is everybody.

And it's important that you tell everybody that you benefited from that because I need everyone to understand we're not trying to put a new group at the top of the pyramid.

We are trying to remove barriers for everyone.

I don't want a demographic barrier to hold you back.

So we spend a lot of money and time on barrier analyses, where we see, are we advertising in the right place to get a representation of America?

Are we attracting the right people who truly represent America?

And are we hiring?

And we have found so far that often it's in the hiring where we fall down.

- At the beginning.

The beginning of the pipeline.

- At the beginning of the pipeline.

So we have increased how we, our outreach to minority serving institutions.

We pay our interns now.

In the old days you had to be well off to intern at the State Department, which was a great way of people getting to know you, learning the system that would allow you to come in afterwards.

But I know I couldn't intern at the State Department.

I did not have money like that.

I had rent to pay and books to buy.

So could not work there.

But now we pay you and we pay you well.

So you all need to be, you young people need to be looking at the State Department for internships.

We will pay you now.

So we expect to broaden the array of people coming in.

Our recruitment has expanded.

Our diplomat in residence program has expanded.

We have changed our test.

In the old days, it was a written test, some essays and an oral assessment.

And then you come through your security, medical and suitability clearance.

In the old days, if you had, and the written test was very much like an SAT.

You know, it's testing grammar and language and your knowledge of different things on that day.

But that written test was never connected to your ability to be a successful diplomat.

The oral assessment does that.

The oral assessment is looking at your cultural competency, your flexibility, your interest and respect for others, how you react if suddenly you are thrown in a village and the plane isn't coming back for you, what do you do?

How do you react if some village that's grateful because you have done something for them, either with agency for international development or in some cases, teaching English as a second language.

And one of the questions, 'cause I used to be an examiner, was they have presented you with a freshly killed lamb.

What do you do?

- I say, thank you.

- That's a perfect start.

But you can't take it back on an airplane and it might be their meat for a month for that village.

Yet you cannot embarrass them by turning them down.

So there are different ways of handling that.

And these are the sort of questions that you'll get taking the oral assessment.

That's checking whether you can really handle living overseas in different cultures.

- I feel like you've pulled, you've just pulled the veil back for all of us, like to the inner workings.

Does Secretary Blinken mind that you are sort of airing the dirty laundry and letting people know that it was dysfunctional and it's trying to become more functional?

- No, and he did it before I did, so.

- Uh-huh.

- And he also said, and we meet every two months.

We meet and talk through.

And he always begins it with, "What have you done for me lately?"

So I will put that out there.

But he said this is part of his legacy and how he expects to be judged, whether successful or not.

As to whether this is the beginning of the change that America is represented by Americans.

- I want to go back to a couple of things just to clarify.

You mentioned non-disclosure agreements a few minutes ago, and I-- - We called them confidentiality provisions.

- Confidentiality provisions.

- Yes.

- And you, what I thought I heard you say was that victims of harassment or discrimination were not allowed to talk about it afterwards.

- There are some things you still can't talk about, which is in your negotiations, if you find out other things, you cannot talk about that.

That didn't happen to you.

But people, okay, looking at the laundry here.

People did not understand that they could say what happened to them and who did it and how much money they got as a result.

So we wanted to clarify that.

And I won't say that it was deliberate that we didn't let people know they can actually talk about it, but we clarified it.

That's a double-edged sword.

Because if the same thing happens to the two of us, and I'm a better negotiator than you and I get a quarter of a million dollars and you just wanna get on your life and you get 15,000, that means A, - It's a likely outcome.

Checks out.

- But what that means is that, A, there may be unhappy people when you find out how much people got, but B, also the department's gonna fight harder not to pay because people be able to talk about it.

So it's a double-edged sword.

- For the benefit of our listening audience, I'll just mention again that we're talking with Ambassador Gina Abercrombie-Winstanley.

She is the Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer at the United States Department of State.

And the first to hold that role.

Former Ambassador to the Republic of Malta.

You also mentioned a few minutes ago that one way by which your colleagues in the State Department are now assessed for their performance is how on the documentation of their efforts to support diversity and inclusion.

How does one document such a commitment?

- Hmm.

Well, I hope people will find it easy if they're doing the right things already.

Depending on the size of your mission, do you volunteer to help people, not like you, navigate the processes?

Do you extend that helping hand?

As a manager we have different sections around the world and in the office doing particular issues.

And I'll just say Embassy Tel Aviv, that's someplace I've worked.

So there is an political section of six officers.

When the political counselor is away, who does he, in this case, my boss was a he, who does he put in charge when he's away?

Who gets the opportunity to be note taker for meetings that the ambassador is having with the Minister of Foreign Affairs?

Who gets to work on the annual 4th of July party celebration, which is our biggest event of the entire year.

Who gets to be control officer when Senator Menendez comes through, or Representative Lee comes through and has an opportunity to talk with a member of Congress and learn about that and talk about themselves and show their knowledge.

Who gets those-- - A member of Congress who might confirm them as an ambassador later on.

- Well, now that's a handy thing too, yes.

So, all of these opportunities that are career enhancing have often been given to people, in the vernacular, it's called mirroring.

You know, I, boy I know where you went to school.

We have similar backgrounds, similar interests.

You remind me of myself, young go-getter.

I want you to be in charge when I'm gone.

But there may be someone who has a different path, a different look, a different perspective that also needs that opportunity to shine.

And although it's common sense to do it, it's good management, it's good leadership.

It also is DEIA.

Inclusion.

Having diverse people and diverse backgrounds, lived experiences, have the ability to bring that to the forefront and to leadership.

So those are ways, and we've written articles.

We do what we call learning snacks to talk through our colleagues what they need to do in order to meet this precept for promotion.

- I'm having this experience right now of thinking about past conversations that we've had as a community and as a nation, really, about how to dismantle structural racism.

And what I believe we're hearing is the first draft of the playbook.

(Ambassador's knuckles lightly tapping) (audience lightly chuckling) - Yeah, I hope so.

We've talked about DEIA and people have made the business case for it.

Yay, McKinsey and Harvard and others, and all of that's very true.

I think we need more brown people, people with disabilities, people with different ways of thinking and women on boards.

Yes, and, leading companies.

Yes, absolutely.

And then we talk about the moral case.

It's the right thing to do.

I mean, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

If we follow those as we've all been raised, we all had our moms in our ears with that, then we would have this solved already.

What I've come down to is I don't care.

I don't care what's in your mind.

I don't care what's in your heart.

I don't care.

What I do care about is what you do.

- [Audience Member] That's right.

- Okay?

What you do.

(audience clapping) So I urge all of us to think about this like cybersecurity, which we all love, right?

We all love changing our passwords and making sure we don't put them on pieces of paper or in our phones.

I don't do that.

Anyway.

For the record.

If you think about cybersecurity, you know that it helps you protect your information.

It helps you protect your organization.

You may not love it.

I do not, but I absolutely do it because I know it's expected of me and it is good for the organization.

So think about inclusion and accessibility with that in mind.

It's good for the organization and it's what we expect.

If you want to prosper, it's what we expect.

We also added, we were quite shocked, we changed the font and how our official documentation and messages to the secretary and out.

I have used the font of Calibri for over 10 years.

That is because I am in trifocals, I am half blind.

So I didn't know why it was easier to read than all the curly Q ones that I think are so pretty, but I can't read them.

So without the little wings and feet.

- Serifs.

- Serifs, yes.

- Yes.

- It's cleaner.

It's easier to read for those of us with visual issues or if you're using technology, screen reader technology.

So my office said to the Secretary, well, we need to change the font.

And he said of course.

And we changed it, making it all more accessible for everyone.

And the New York Times did an article and the Wall Street Journal did an article.

And we were like-- - About the State Department changing the font.

- Changing the font.

- Wow.

- Thank you.

- Look at the impact you're having.

(Ambassador and audience laughing) - Yes, and other government agencies have followed suit too.

But the thing is, is that it's a simple thing, but has impact.

And you talked about how the inclusion part, that's one of the things.

- Yes, yes.

- One of the things.

And so we are continuing to look for small ways that have immediate impact.

And one policy that we've put in that is very personal to me, I forget what it is in the cable, but I call it we got your back policy.

And that is, as Americans travel overseas, official Americans in this case, if you are female or brown, look different, have a disability, maybe LGBTQA with a family and you come through ports, airports, sea ports, border crossings, other interactions with officials around the world, you can be, and too often, are treated differently.

I've had the experience myself.

A country, I shall remain nameless today unless you ask me, (audience laughing) where the entire airplane, a 747, landed and we're all standing in line to go through immigration.

And an immigration official pointed at me and did that.

And took me out of line.

And I'm standing there not knowing why, and he wouldn't talk to me and he wouldn't let me come closer.

And the entire airplane was let through and they all looked at me as they walked by.

And you can imagine how humiliating that felt.

And the entire plane went through and then he let me come up and give my passport and go through.

- [Dan] Which nation was that?

(Ambassador and audience laughing) - No, no, no, I have to be good.

- Okay.

- I have to be good.

But so we put out a policy, we ask all of our missions around the world to, number one, set up a standard operating procedure because we were getting reports, because now we exist, we were getting reports from officers around the world of being stopped at borders or being stopped by security officials as they drove around the roads.

And so we asked missions to put in what should, when people have this experience, who do they report to?

And what are you, the mission, going to do about it?

Because I had a young diplomat during my travels say to me that he was leaving the State Department because every time his wife and mother-in-law who were from a different country, from the one in which he was serving, where evidently there were tensions of some sort, were stopped and taken out of line or put in secondary, delayed for two hours, four hours.

And he said, "I'm not leaving because they're doing this to my family.

I'm leaving because I'm not getting the support from my mission.

My mission is gaslighting me saying it's their fault."

Or am I thinking it's this but it's really that?

So we don't want that to happen.

- So in terms of support then, does that mean your office calls a counterpart in that nation?

- What it means is that the chief of mission or the deputy chief of mission, leadership follows up immediately.

If Washington needs to get involved, as happened in a country, I'm sure I should not name, where they stopped some brown officers, the chargé went into the foreign ministry and the assistant secretary in Washington went in.

So this is what we want to happen.

So we're getting apologies for our staff.

We're getting changes in training for immigration officials.

When a female officer not too long ago was harassed by immigration officials who found that she was very lovely and perhaps would like to consider marriage and step into this room with me at the airport.

Absolutely this stuff happens.

And so the embassy followed up.

(audience laughing) We even found, yes.

We even found an officer who was in a cafe in the same nation that held me up, but nevermind, with her service animal.

And I've only recently come to understand the difference between service and comfort animal.

Her service animal, working animal.

And she was put out of the coffee shop.

Said she nor her animal was welcome and she needed to go.

And they put her out.

She reported it.

And the embassy had a non-governmental organization that they were in contact with that supports people with disabilities.

The embassy, her leadership and the NGO went back to the cafe to talk to the owner and educate him about service animals.

They went away with an apology and a decal in the window that says service animals welcome in the local language.

So this has impact beyond just official Americans.

That's an inclusion one.

As I said, we got your back.

- That's big.

- That's something that I know has impact.

- My colleagues have just brought microphones out into the audience, which is a clear signal to me that I need to move from my questions to the questions from the audience.

And we are about to begin the audience Q and A. I'm Dan Moulthrop of the City Club and we're joined today by Ambassador Gina Abercrombie-Winstanley who's been discussing her work as the nation's first State Department Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer.

All of you're welcome to ask a question.

City Club members, guests, and those of you joining us via our livestream or our radio broadcast on 89.7 WKSU Ideastream Public Media.

If you'd like to tweet a question, you can tweet it @thecityclub.

If you want to text us a question, you can text it to 330-541-5794.

The number again is 330-541-5794.

And we'll do our best to work it into the program.

Let's go to our first question.

- In terms of the visas that are issued, all of the people who were from Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria that were coming and was taking forever to get their visas, all of a sudden Ukraine happens and all of a sudden Ukraine come to the forefront.

And the visas were issued indiscriminately versus the brown people that were coming from other parts of the world.

How are you going to fix that because that's part of the State Department?

- Yeah, well I think the answer is, the short one and the one that I started with, which is lived experiences, knowledge, all of that has to be part of our organization.

As we make decisions we're basing it on lots of research, people in the field, people in the department.

But I do believe that having a more diverse group of decision makers, up and down the organization, will bring different thought processes to how we make these decisions.

And I hope that answers the question, but it is, we gotta fix ourselves internally, even as we try and adjust our foreign policy.

And it's two sides.

There are two executive orders.

One for the inside and one for how we deal outside.

And so as you may know, we have special representatives for racial equity.

Desirée Cormier Smith is her name.

Brilliant young woman.

And so this kind of discrepancy that you're flagging is something that we have put in place under this administration to look at to make sure we're not making mistakes or decisions simply on demographic barriers, demographic groups.

A lot of Ukraine, there was a lot of discussion about treatment of Africans in Ukraine that came out, disparate treatment, discriminatory treatment.

And so we have to have all of this knowledge and as I said we didn't get here yesterday.

So it's gonna take time.

- [Dan] Thank you.

- In your role, are you talking with the Itamaraty, the state department in Brazil or the state departments in other European countries or elsewhere and implementing similar policies?

And do they have DEI officers as well?

Because I think what you're doing could also be very helpful to citizens across the world.

- Yeah.

Thank you.

Brazil in fact was my first overseas trip and I was an eyeopening trip.

I think-- - Your first overseas trip as CDIO.

- As CDIO, yeah.

I think a lot of Americans don't know and understand the history of Brazil.

And I certainly had a crash course just before I went and once I got there.

And in fact, I gave an interview while I was there and the headline was, "She can't find any Black people."

And I didn't choose the headline, but it was in the course of the interview, I said, I'm meeting with senior government officials and we're business leaders.

And I was told before I got here that the majority of the country was not white.

And yet I don't see any non-white people.

What's up with that?

So we are indeed having those sorts of conversations.

The embassy and the consulates, we have many in Brazil, are working to reach minority or majority, but minority as far as leadership is concerned, audiences.

And I was delighted to meet a series of young ambassadors that we are helping sending to the United States for programs, working with the private sector.

We did a dinner where I quizzed them about their DEIA work and they were saying while there was not pressure to do it in Brazil, and in fact after their George Floyd incidents, that in fact the crackdown on Black Brazilians was even stronger, that it went, absolutely, there was no discussion of the need for change.

Under the previous administration in Brazil, to be sure.

But companies, leadership and companies told me that they were feeling pressure from the United States to change and to ensure that their recruitment was broadened.

That they didn't make the assumption that because you are white appearing Brazilian, that you are going to have fluent English and because you are brown, that you are not.

So they talked about changes that they're trying to make from pressure from us.

So, these are multinational firms.

I'm sure that conversations are ongoing with the current administration on this topic and will continue.

But I do have internal and external meetings as I go around the world.

I was in Chile, I think, where we signed a bilateral agreement to increase DEIA and worked together to find best practices and to put them in place.

So we do do that externally as well as internally.

- I know you're at the federal level, but is there anything that you can do as far as having some kind of impact on what's happening in our states around diversity and inclusion?

- Yeah.

It is a challenge.

As you say, I am at the federal level and any political, we're nonpartisan.

We serve who's ever in charge.

I mean, I think people need to be having conversations about it.

And I think as citizens we're all required to vote and you say silence the voice of the voters.

But I am generally familiar with voter turnout in too many places around the nation and certainly here in Cleveland that it's, people aren't using their voice.

So you can't silence what isn't there.

That said, all we have to do is look at the first horrific shooting last week and the interview with the man's grandson.

But right there is an argument for why we need to be talking about diversity and inclusion.

- [Dan] You're talking about Kansas City, Missouri.

- I'm talking about Kansas City.

- [Dan] The shooting of Ralph Yarl.

- You know, the fear that that gentleman expressed just seeing black skin.

Who's to say that we don't need more?

I mean, the argument just cannot be made.

So I think we have to be talking more and I think people have to vote.

- [Dan] Do you wanna mention or share the story of your encounter, your recent encounter last year with the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee?

(Ambassador sighs) (audience laughs) - I did have the privilege of testifying in front of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

- [Dan] Foreign Relations Committee.

- With Senator Menendez and Senator Risch as ranking member.

Senator Menendez is the chair.

There was an interaction with Senator Cruz and it's online.

If you need entertainment, feel free.

(audience laughs) Only because, you know, the questions were, in my view, we're not seeking an answer.

There is no interest in what my response was.

And the assertion was that as a white Christian male that you could not hope for a good career in the Department of State because of DEIA.

And there may be those who worry about that, but if I had really been allowed to answer the question, I would've said, Senator, please look at the data.

A big part of what we do in my office is gather and collate and analyze the data and the data show over 83% of those at the top positions, the best positions in our organization belong to European Americans.

That the majority of those people in those positions are European American males.

So nobody should be afraid.

All they have to do is have a look.

And until they see some change that takes it below the population, nobody has anything to worry about.

And that's, if he'd been interested in my response, I believe I would've been able to reassure him with some facts, but he was not interested in my response.

So.

- Good afternoon, Ambassador.

It's very nice to see you again.

I'm Michele Scott Taylor with College Now.

We're all happy to see you.

- Yay, College Now.

(audience clapping) - We miss you.

I have a beautiful daughter.

She is an officer.

She graduated from West Point.

She's currently serving in Estonia.

Everything that you're saying she has experienced and part of the reason why she is on the clock is because of issues related to DEI.

I'm wondering are there things that you foresee doing that might retain brilliant officers in the Army who may not reflect the general culture as it's represented now?

- Yeah.

Well-- - You wanna mention you were on the board of College Now?

- Oh, I, yes.

I don't know.

I don't know if I can answer that.

Yes, as a federal employee, I'm not allowed to be on any board.

So I'm not now, but it was my pride and privilege to be on the board of College Now.

It's an amazing program.

I do like to say that the mentee that I got, I am still in contact with.

So we have maintained a relationship and it's been great.

Brilliant, brilliant young man, brilliant young man.

So DOD has a-- - The Department of Defense.

- Department of Defense.

Thank you.

Sorry.

- It's all right.

- Department of Defense has a Chief Diversity Inclusion Officer.

It's at the undersecretary level.

They, it's a massive organization and they have a lot of work to do.

In many ways they lead for the federal government with regard to diversity.

On the other hand, like every other federal agency, the diversity tends to be at the lower ranks, not the senior ranks.

And that's where we've gotta make the changes.

Now, if that is happening in Estonia, if she's under Chief of Mission authority, which I don't know, but she should certainly let the embassy know that that is happening because they will do something about it now, okay?

Make sure that the embassy knows.

- Hi.

- Hi.

- Good afternoon.

Thank you so much for sharing and coming to share your experience with us.

My question is, is this position in your office, does it serve at the pleasure of the Secretary and is it a permanent position in office or is it when the next administration comes in that it can be done away with?

- The question.

So I do serve at the pleasure of the Secretary and whoever replaces me will as well.

A decision was made at the beginning not to have it senate confirmable because they wanted someone in place quickly.

And as you see, our confirmation system is broken.

Badly, badly.

Non-controversial career officers are taking a year or longer to get confirmed.

So we're in trouble with that.

We're in trouble.

And I don't have immediate answers on how to fix it.

I will say this, the work that we're doing and as we publicize the work that we're doing, again, inclusion being what we're heading for for everybody, that nobody wants to turn the clock back.

If you ask anybody in our organization, do we want to go back to the senior positions being chosen this way instead of everyone being able to compete for them?

You won't find a single person who says we need to go back.

So we're really working hard to get our work in the foundation and making sure people understand what we're doing so that it continues.

We have had great support on the Hill.

Congressman McFall, who's now Chair, has been a wonderful interlocutor for me.

Senator Risch on the Senate side has been a encouraging interlocutor.

We are answering some questions that he had because I think rightly so, he asked about diversity of place.

Is America, all of America being represented or is it just the Ivy Leagues and the Washington DC schools?

And we do, because I went to one, supply a lot of the foreign service because you are exposed to it, you know how to get into an internship, et cetera, et cetera.

So we are now asking the question.

We couldn't answer the question before.

Now we're asking questions, allowing people to tell us what part of the states do you come from?

Do you come from a big city or a small town or mid-size?

What is your heritage from your parents or your grandparents?

So we can know, do we have people from Latin America, Middle East, Europe, et cetera.

We now have a Middle East North Africa slot so that people who are from that region don't have to go down as European because everybody doesn't feel like they're treated like European if you come from that part of the world.

So if you're not feeling that, you can be very specific there.

We're now asking about sexual orientation gender identity so that you can tell us that.

What we don't ask is about religion.

We do not ask about that.

So I will never be able to tell Senator Cruz that we are majority Christian, even though I know we are, but we don't ask that question.

So we do ask the protected classes and a few more.

And I think this is going to be very helpful to ensure that we are well-represented.

We'll keep getting the data and when you see the data that Hispanic Americans, Latinx or Latino, Latina, I'm not sure which one is the right one.

So they're, all of them, are 18% of the population and yet they're 4% of the Department of State.

Something wrong there.

Something's wrong there.

And we have to identify where the barriers are because we're not having America properly represented.

- Greetings, I want to applaud the City Club for bringing the ambassador.

She's amazing.

- [Dan] Yes indeed.

- Hi.

(attendees clapping) - My question has to do with authentic or reliable news sources.

As I try to follow you all over the world, it's quite difficult to find an authentic news source.

So is there a website or a US information warehouse, something where we can follow you?

- Well, I lost my blue Twitter check yesterday.

(audience laughing) I'm pleased to say it because today if I had it, you'd know I paid and I don't.

So, but I am on Twitter still, so we kind of plot my comings and goings.

We have a public website as well.

And then, not always in a positive fashion, but I do make the news now and again, but if you're reading the Washington Free Beacon or some other things like that, they will be complaining about my good work.

So I'd say follow our website or our Twitter account at this point.

You'll see what we're doing and what we're trying to do.

And I have to give the reverend a shout out.

(audience laughing) Runs an amazing food bank on the west side of Cleveland that I, when I can, I volunteer at.

And it's an amazing group of people that do it and yay, so.

- [Dan] Thank you.

Thank you.

(audience clapping) - Hi, my name is Anaya.

I'm a student at Cleveland Heights High School.

- Good.

- And I was wondering if there was anything that we as young people, especially those who can't vote, that we can do to help aid diversity and inclusion within our own communities?

- Yeah, thank you.

Yeah, we gotta start it from the beginning.

Obviously it really boils down to how we're treating each other, how we're supporting each other.

You can do that every single day and I'm sure that you do.

Stay informed, stay aware.

Don't be afraid to use your voice.

I mean, I saw that demonstration of Mr. Yarl's classmates come out in support of.

We have to use our voice in this country.

And be prepared to vote as soon as you turn 18 and bring your friends to do so as well.

It is so important.

It is so important and we're wasting it.

We are wasting it, many of us, by not participating.

So, counting on you.

We made a lot of mistakes.

You gotta fix them.

(audience laughing) - Hello Ambassador.

- Hi.

- Thank you for coming out to speak to us.

My name is Sean Herron.

As you talked about this being part of Joe Biden's legacy, but I think it will still, you will be remembered for this, I think to some extent.

And when, how do you want people to look back on this?

If you had a choice into dictating how people talk about what you've done here, what do you want them to say?

- Well, I anticipate success.

I've always said that my definition of success is that I'm out of a job.

I'm out of a job.

I want to, I don't know what I wanna do, but I wanna do something else.

I don't want to be needed in this role.

So I hope that I'm leaving markers for continuing the success that we've started with and that I inspire people to keep going.

It's worth the effort.

It is aggravating and agonizing.

And I joke, if you look at my photograph, the first day I started it was all black hair.

(audience laughing) - Well, that happened to President Obama too.

- Yeah, well it happens to all of them.

Yeah.

So, we need you and we're gonna get this done.

I do, I do believe that.

We're gonna get this done.

- [Dan] Okay.

Another question.

- How, I mean you talk a lot about like how lived experiences needs to be, like thought about when you're hiring people to do these jobs.

So how have your lived experiences, especially like your experience at Heights, how did that give you the energy to like push forward in bridging the gap in our society?

- Yeah.

Thank you.

Well, I mean I, you know, Cleveland and Heights High, and I attended Cleveland schools and Shaker schools too, we moved around a lot, was absolutely foundational to who I am today.

My education at Cleveland Heights High was super.

I studied Hebrew in high school.

That's how I got to Tel Aviv University as a exchange student, which sparked my interest in the Middle East and led to my ambassadorship and my career today.

So I give it to education and educators here in Cleveland and certainly in Cleveland Heights.

My experience of being comfortable with people different than myself, because I was still a minority population in Heights at the time that I attended.

The amazing array of courses that were available to us as students.

I remember origins of Western civilizations being one of my favorites.

Absolutely sparked my interest and excitement about the world.

The ability to go and travel and meet other people and figure out how we're all in this together, started here, started here.

And so I will always come home here and I will always try and pay it forward here.

And we must all do the same.

Yeah.

- Ambassador Gina Abercrombie-Winstanley, thank you so much for your work for helping, if I can kind of quote or echo Langston Hughes for a second here, "Helping America be a bit more America."

Thank you.

(attendees clapping) It's a standing ovation if you're listening on the radio.

We'd like to, as we close out, I want to thank our guests at tables hosted by Cleveland Heights High School, College Now, Greater Cleveland, Global Cleveland, the Heights Schools Foundation, Medical Mutual, and the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District.

Thank you all for joining us today.

Next Friday, April 28th, Andre Ward of the David Rothenberg Center for Public Policy will join us for a conversation on the importance of lessening institutional and legal barriers to employment for returning citizens.

Friday May 5th we've got former US Attorney General William Barr, but that's sold out so you're gonna have to, yeah, I know.

It's gonna be fun.

So thank you for joining us.

Lots more on our website, cityclub.org.

Our forum is now adjourned.

Have a wonderful weekend.

(bell dings) (audience clapping) - [Announcer] For information on upcoming speakers or for podcasts of the City Club, go to cityclub.org.

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