Production and distribution of city club forums on Ideastream Public Media are made possible by PNC and the United Black Fund of Greater Cleveland, Inc.. Good afternoon and welcome to the City Club of Cleveland, where we are devoted to conversations of consequence that help democracy thrive.

Today's Friday, February 7th.

And I'm Dan Moulthrop I'm the chief executive here at the City Club.

We're so glad to have all of you with us today for our forum, which is the Pete DeLeon Endowed Forum on Local politics.

And it's also part of our ongoing series on Criminal Justice, which we present in partnership with the Char and Chuck Fowler Family Foundation.

Now, this introduction may take just a little longer than usual because there's quite a lot of context to provide, and I thank you for allowing it.

Last November, City Club hosted a forum with attorneys about Chandra Latanya Goldsby with Black Lives Matter, Cleveland, and Samaria Rice, the mother of Tamir Rice, to contemplate what has and hasn't happened with regard to police reform in the last in the ten years since Tamir Rice was killed by a police officer's actions.

It was a deeply moving and powerful conversation, and if you missed it, you can view it anytime at cityclub.org.

And we're here today with key leadership responsible for implementing police reform in Cleveland.

We'll take stock of the progress made against the goals laid out in the federal consent decree, which has governed the Cleveland Division of Police for the past ten years.

Next, that consent decree, by the way, was established after a 21 month investigation by the U.S. Department of Justice, which found that the division of police was engaging, quote, in a pattern or practice of using excessive force in violation of the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution and, quote, the remedies it laid out were extensive, focusing on building community trust, promoting community and problem oriented policing, enhancing officer safety and training, ensuring accountability and implementing technological upgrades.

The Cleveland Community Police Commission was also established at this time, bringing 13 community voices into the process of police reform.

The CBCs role was deepened after voters passed past Issue 24 in 2021, giving the commission final say in disciplinary proceedings and officer policies and enshrining the commission in law.

Meanwhile, more recently, Ohio Senator Bernie Moreno just this week asked Attorney General Pam Bondi to review this consent decree and those in place in other cities and consider them for voluntary dismissal.

I'm sure we'll touch on that later.

But this afternoon we will talk about the current state of police reform in Cleveland and the progress that has been made on meeting the goals and requirements laid out in the consent decree.

Joining us are Dr. Leigh Anderson.

She's the executive director of the Police Accountability Team at the city of Cleveland with a Ph.D. in public policy and management from the Glenn College at Ohio State.

Dr. Anderson has worked on police reform across the country, including in Gary, Indiana, in Ferguson, Missouri.

Dorothy Todd is chief of the Cleveland Division of Police.

She became an officer in 2000, rose through the ranks and took command of the third District in 2019 and became chief in 2023.

She was also recently named one of Cleveland's most interesting People by Cleveland magazine.

Moderating our conversation is reporter and producer Abbey Marshall, who's with us, who's with our partners at Ideastream Public Media.

She's been with Ideastream for two years with the Akron Beacon Journal before that.

She was a fellow with Report for America and is a graduate of the Scripps School of Journalism at the Ohio University.

If you have question a question for our speakers, you can text that question to 3305415794.

And City Club staff will work it into the Q&A portion of the program.

Members and friends of the City Club of Cleveland please join me in welcoming Dr. Leigh Anderson, chief of Police Dorothy Todd and reporter Abbey Marshall.

Thanks, Dan.

So I wanted to start out.

We are a decade into this process, but I wanted to note that both of you are relatively new to your roles.

So very quickly for our audience so that they have context.

Can you talk about your role, Dr. Anderson, when you got started and what your role is with this consent decree?

Sure.

So per paragraph 385 of the consent decree, there are supposed to be a consent decree implementation team.

So when Mayor Bibb got into office, he made sure that that was fulfilled and it resulted in the creation of the police accountability team.

Now, the police accountability team, our sole focus is compliance with the consent decree.

Everything within the four corners are over 400 paragraphs of the consent decree.

We are a dedicated and committed to making sure that we work with the division of Police, that we work with the Department of Public Health and other partners to make sure that it is that the objectives are met.

And prior to you assuming that role, what was happening, who was facilitating that sort of thing, if this was a new if you're kind of the inaugural person in that role?

Yeah.

So I, I don't have all of the information about that, but I think we had it was really localized.

Maybe Chief can maybe talk a little bit more.

Okay.

So prior to Dr. Anderson and her team joining the city of Cleveland kind of were our own entity for handling everything related to the consent decree.

And I think that brought some challenges because when you look at it, as you know, here is a legal document that you have to comply with and how do we find the best way to be in compliance with that?

And we had a lot of barriers.

We had a lot of unknowns that, you know, really wasn't our expertise.

You know, we're law enforcement officers.

And how do we find the ways to make sure that we are in compliance and since she's joined our team, you know, she gives that perspective and understanding and to, for lack of a better word, she simplifies it because for us, it's really an overcomplicated document.

And then when she comes in and she says, this is what this means, it really helps us to make the changes needed to be in compliance.

So we are about a decade in.

Obviously, you have joined in the last few years and Chief Todd, you've you've been in Cleveland police since 2000.

Are these findings that Dan just outlined for us that talked about excessive force and things of that nature?

Is that kind of been your experience since you've joined, or is the culture or are things different?

Okay, so I'll start off on that.

Since the consent decree was implemented, we've changed a lot of our policies, we've changed our trainings, we've implemented body cameras, we've added in-car dash cameras.

And a lot of what we do is changed in policing.

And if you see, you know, from when I started to where we are now, we're a completely different division of police.

And does it feel different for you as someone that's kind of experienced and witnessed maybe some of these patterns of behavior?

I definitely I feel the difference.

You know, throughout the changes that we've made, I think we've really made good changes.

I think that, you know, we strive for constitutional policing and the changes that we're making.

You know, you can see the impact it has and the trust isn't completely there with the community, but it's getting better.

And it's really you know, we're seeing the changes and, you know, the impact it has.

And I think it's really been a positive trend.

Dr. Anderson, same same question since you came in.

You don't quite have the history of Cleveland, but you've done this work in other cities.

Can you kind of talk about your experience here in Cleveland?

Yeah.

So one of the things that I'll note is working with other cities in that are in consent decrees or settlement agreements.

I was very surprised to see that the Cleveland community embodied their consent decree.

It is a part of the fabric of their identity.

And that is something that I think is very powerful because it takes the level of accountability from the community to the organization or the governance structure to a higher level.

And so what we're seeing is, as chief had mentioned, there are different changes in policies.

So when you have a consent decree, you have to change the policies FAS, implement the training based on those policies, and then you come in and you do an assessment to find out how well you're doing.

So we are at the place of assessment for many of the ears of the consent decree.

And what I want to note is, Ash, you've stated areas such as use of force ok are down below the national average.

We also have our crisis intervention training program, which is phenomenal.

We have a less than 1% use of force rate when we come to using force with individuals that are experiencing mental crises.

And then we also understand that 90% of those individuals are transferred or referred to other programs.

So what we're seeing is a whole of government, a whole of community approach within the city of Cleveland to really come into compliance with their decree.

And if I can just add a little bit, we're just really quick on that.

Not only is it a change for the division of police, but it's for law enforcement in general.

You know, it's we hear quite often, often from agencies around the country.

They want to hear about our policies.

They want to see the programs we've implemented because they see the good work that we're doing here.

So I'm sure everyone in the room has the same question What is the progress?

Can you quantify that for us?

What where are we at a decade in millions of dollars spent to comply with this consent decree?

Yes.

So great question.

It consent decree.

Progress is really hard to quantify.

And I'll tell you why.

They are very idiosyncratic.

So each city or jurisdiction that has a consent decree, it's its own.

And so one of the things that I like to point out is, for example, Baltimore has been held up as an example for a city that is making excessive progress through their consent decree.

They have 17 areas in their consent decree, and they have made progress in five of those areas where as they are able to assess their compliance in real time, we must wait until our full section is complete so the use of force inspection is complete, and then our monitoring team can come in and conduct an assessment.

So I wanted to note that the consent decree was supposed to take five years.

Like you said, we're in a decade, Right?

And so but to Chief Todd point, it's important to note that too, a change policies, culture, training and all of these other actions within a police or a division of police to be able to move forward is something that has been remarkable.

Yeah.

And for people that are maybe feeling frustration in the community, understandably so, we're double the amount of time that you said it was supposed to take.

What is your message to them, Chief Todd?

Is this something that is a concern for you within the division of police?

So that's a really good question.

And it's something that I think that there needs to be a better understanding of.

If you look at the document itself, it's a lot of paragraphs and to be in compliance, you have to fulfill all of those paragraphs.

And if you have anything that changes to visually with each evaluation period, it could go up or down and that could be something as simple as, you know, we had an inspector general, you know, several years ago.

That person left the division and the vacant.

There was a vacancy for quite a long time which caused downgrades in the consent decree.

And it shows, you know, to the community they're not in compliance.

You know, we look at those strong factors with use of force, with crisis intervention, with our CPAP.

You know, those are things that we're really doing well at.

But with any paragraph in the consent decree, if there's something that is not in completely as written, it's considered a downgrade and it doesn't reflect necessarily on the work of our men and women.

It might be a technicality.

It might be something procedurally that still needs to be completed.

So when you see these changes, you know, I hope that people would actually read the language to see what the changes is instead of, you know, just looking at, okay, there's ten downgrades and 20 upgrades.

Really look at the context of what those, you know, the language of that is.

So it sounds like a lot of this is perhaps a difficult to understand how how is the education to the community?

How do you try to get people to understand what has been accomplished, what still needs to happen?

Dr. Anderson, can you speak to that?

Just making sure that community members understand the process.

Yes.

So that has been a an immediate challenge for for me, because I don't have a comms team.

We are strictly focused on making sure that we are in compliance.

However, education is important because this is something that the community has to be a part of, the community must be a part of the progress.

And so what we do is we go to, for example, the District Policing committee meetings and we give presentations.

We've also been to third District, their police academy, their citizens police academy.

We also present to command staff about the consent decree.

We also present to the Academy, right?

So we want the entire community to know what the consent decree is.

The work that's being done and how we can all work together to move forward procedurally towards compliance.

Now, Dr. Anderson, you have said that you are completely done writing with the written policies and we're in the implementation phase and the assessment phase.

Can you talk a little bit about what that means?

Is that still the case?

Are all the written policies done?

Yes.

So there are a few more policies that are being worked on, primarily with the Community Police Commission.

And so what we are doing is they have a part to play in some of the policies that are moving forward through the division of police and for the city of Cleveland.

And so we are working with them to make sure that those policies are complete and that they are published.

Now, it takes a while because we are a local government under federal oversight.

So what does that mean?

Every policy that comes through must go through the Department of Justice for review.

It must be and goes through the federal monitor for review.

It must be and go to the federal judge for approval, and then we can implement that process.

So when we talk about time, it's not something that is is happening quickly.

We understand that, but is happening effectively.

And can you speak to what some of those policies that they're currently reviewing are?

Yes.

So the drone policy I know everyone is is aware of the drone policy.

We also have the corrective action guidance policy which talks about discipline.

And so there are critical policies that the community is actually getting the chance to review before they go move and go to and to file for implementation.

And for those who don't know.

Can you just briefly give the rundown of the drone policy?

Yes.

So well, I've got a question for you.

I can just say that our drone policy is still a work in progress.

And that has was originally drafted in partnership with the CPC.

It went to the DOJ and monitors for their comments and it was sent back.

And we're currently going to sit down with the CPC again to work through what that looks like and how we can implement that in the division of Police.

So, Dr. Anderson, as we move into this assessment phase, as you've mentioned, what do you expect to see areas of strength, areas that still need some attention?

Yeah.

So I think it's important to also mention that I come from an inspector general background.

So policy oversight is a just a love of mine.

I'm just going to call it that.

And so what that translates into is that not just making sure we're in compliance, but also helping the division of police and other city entities that are mentioned in the consent decree, making sure that we are doing periodic internal audits.

What does that look like?

Right.

So the police accountability team reviews a lot of work, works with the data team to go over different projects or processes that have been published for review.

And I think one of the things that we will begin to see in this process is that there are some areas where we need to to work on.

Absolutely, that's not a question.

But then there are some areas where we're seeing great improvement, such as community and problem oriented policing of crisis intervention response.

And I think that one of the areas that, for example, we're working with is search and seizure, right?

So we have to be honest about these areas, right.

Search and seizure is how we got into this.

Right.

And so the first three areas that we're looking at into assessment where search and seizure, crisis intervention and use of force, those are the three areas that underscore really why the city of Cleveland is underneath federal oversight and in a consent decree.

And so to have those areas move forward, I think will do a great job and proving to the community where our deficits are, where the progress is, and where we need their help to make additional gains and strides.

Now, since you've brought in a crisis intervention, I want to bring up the crisis intervention team, which crisis intervention is something that the Monitor regularly points to as an area of progress.

Chief Todd, can you talk a little bit about what policies have been in place and how that has played out in the last few years?

So throughout the division, all of our members are trained in crisis intervention and then we have a next level which are specialized crisis intervention officers.

And then we took it to the next level, which is a partnership of our co responder team, and that is a dedicated crisis intervention officer who goes out with a clinician and they respond to and follow up on crisis calls.

So when you have someone who's in a crisis case and you know, the officers go out, they address to you the situation, it's not a lot of follow up.

There's no mechanism in place for, you know, that to prevent the call from happening again or prevent any other interactions with our law enforcement officers.

So this team goes out there and they do those.

They have regular checklists.

They follow up on their care, they follow up on their medication.

And we currently have seven teams throughout the city that that's their dedicated the work that they do every day.

And do you consider that a success?

Absolutely.

And as you know, there's there's different variations of this and there's care response, which is the non-law enforcement response.

And then there's a couple responses which we have here.

And I think they're all effective.

And I think nationwide, everyone has their different ways that they handled the crisis calls.

But we do have a lot of different agencies saying, how are you doing this?

How did you implement this?

And, you know, what is the success rate?

And we found really, you know, that this is a successful program.

Mm hmm.

And given that, do you plan on expanding that program at all, or are you planning to shift attention to maybe some other areas that Dr. Anderson had laid out as problem areas?

So this is when we talk about expanding, we look at expanding is having more.

So we are expanding with adding more officers and clinicians to this team.

And, you know, when we first initially started, they worked in the afternoon hours.

We shifted to have teams during the day and afternoon.

And we want to make sure that we have that coverage because it does it it makes an impact for even our men and women who are responding to crisis calls to know there's someone out there besides us that is there to help.

You know, they have that dedicated clinician who is specializes in this.

Another voice that really has that impact to help with these calls for service and kind of shifting focus a little bit to areas that might need some more attention, might need some more work.

The consent decree monitor has said the next thing that he'll be looking at is discipline and promotions.

Dr. Anderson, can you kind of give us where we're at on those?

Yes.

So we are currently working we just had a site visit actually with a monitor team and Department of Justice this this week.

And we are working on the promotions policy.

Right.

So we want promotions to be fair.

We want them to be just we want them to be based on merit.

We want promotions for our officers that are coming through that understand what is exactly expected of them so that they can execute effectively.

And so we are working on the promotions policy.

And as far as discipline, that policy, as is working through the oversight process is with the Community Police Commission for review.

So there have been concerns given officers histories with misconduct or possible discipline histories, getting promotions, receiving promotions, and that has created some concern among some community members.

Chief Todd, can you kind of just speak to that a little bit, because I'm sure you're balancing you officers saying this was X number of years ago.

I don't want this to be held against me for the rest of my career, but also community members that rightfully so, have concerns about any officer with any kind of misconduct in their past.

And that's a very good point.

We have had, you know, as you know, promotions are based on civil service tests.

So that is a written test that's conducted by civil service.

And then there's an assessment center where you have outside agencies that come in to do the assessed assessment, where they're doing their the verbal part of it.

So that's when they actually do the interviews with the assessors.

So a score is created and it's ranked and it's a civil service score.

And from there that is how promotions are considered.

As you know, we have two unions in the city, the one that oversees supervisors, the Fraternal Order of Police, and we have to work with them on what is fair and just what these the promotional process.

There's never been a per se policy in place.

With that, it's we've followed the guidelines of the civil service laws for promotions and with any, you know, change and that we have to have civil service on board as well.

So right now we're looking at implementing a change in the policy.

And then what happens with that?

It goes through civil service.

Civil service would approve that.

And the officers know going into it, this is the parameters.

You know, those parameters weren't set before.

So when we evaluate a disciplinary history on a promotion, everything else we had done before was a three are look look back and, you know, then the concerns came out.

Well, this you know, someone did this ten years ago.

Someone did this 15 years ago.

Should it be considered?

You know, and it's a tough question.

Should it be considered, you know, and they're still here, they're still active.

They're still law enforcement officers.

And if they did something ten years ago and, you know, the corrective action was taken and they've made positive changes, should it still be considered?

And I'm not saying, you know, I'm not answering that question, but it's a tough balance.

So how long should the city, I guess, looking at other cities to how long should the city look back on discipline, history?

Three years, five years, ten years, forever.

Dr. Anderson, what has kind of been your experience looking at other cities policies?

It absolutely varies.

I think one of the things that we have to really focus on is the fact that discipline is happening, accountability is happening, right.

And so officers are human.

Mistakes will be made no matter how many policies or trainings that are there.

Right.

But we have to make sure that the oversight system is such that it will be looked at fairly for the officer and also if there was a complaint to it.

But we also want to make sure that the discipline fits whatever the the infraction was for the particular officer.

So that varies.

I don't think that there's any hard and fast rule for a look back.

That's why we have I know in Chicago, they do assessments as well as Cleveland does assessments where they do the in-person interviews.

They do look at the disciplinary files.

And so it varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

And that is why we are working on the policy now to make sure that we have and that we are in line with best practices throughout the country.

And once that policy is created, do you anticipate that the officers that have already been promoted that might have it might kind of fall out of line with that policy?

Will they be grandfathered in or will there be a reassessment into their histories?

I can touch on that.

So, as you know, we have collective bargaining agreements.

So to go back on that would have to be a written agreement with the with the FOP.

So if, as you know, just because someone gets promoted doesn't mean that they're not subject to discipline, you know, each layer of supervision has another supervisor, including me.

I have the public safety director and the mayor that I answer to.

So each layer has supervision.

And if a supervisor is not doing what they're supposed to do or if they are not doing constitutional policing, they're all subject to discipline.

So there's been instances throughout, you know, the division of police where people have been demoted.

You know, there was that the discipline or the the violation was so egregious that it cause for demotion.

So we still have policies in place to monitor the performance of all members, including supervisors.

Dr. Anderson, do you believe the time has come or will come soon that the city of Cleveland will file a motion of dismissal for this consent decree?

No, I don't see I don't see the city filing.

And and I answer that in a way that I don't do politics.

As Dan said, I am a policy wonk.

So I do policy, not politics.

But we are in the throes of the consent decree.

Judge Oliver is in charge.

My mandate is very clear from the mayor.

It is to make sure that we are in compliance with the consent decree.

As far as I'm concerned, that will continue until I am given a different mandate.

And Dan touched on this at the top.

Senator Bernie Marino has said that he would like President Donald Trump to take a look at all consent decrees, including in Cleveland.

And we know that the Trump administration has been kind of hostile toward consent decrees.

Given all of that, that, you know, there may be an end to the consent decree.

How durable is the reform that has happened so far?

Very durable.

And I say that as someone that has spent a lot of time in this space.

I one of the things that drew me to Cleveland was the fact that Cleveland right now, barring probably Chicago, but they're rivaling Cleveland right now, has the most civilian oversight of any other city in the country.

OC So not only is there internal mechanisms that are looking at accountability, but there are external mechanisms that are also ensuring that that accountability happens.

And then you also have officers, right?

So so this is this the truth is that it's not, you know, just one sided.

Right?

Officers want to work with other officers that are about the business and keep the main thing the main thing when it comes to policing.

And Chief Todd, can you speak to that as well if if the consent decree goes away at a federal level, what is your commitment to kind of uphold what has happened so far going forward?

It's a good question.

So with or without the consent decree, I can tell you we at the Division of Police are committed to constitutional policing and policing throughout the years has changed dramatically.

And that could be anything from tools, techniques that are used, you know, best practices.

Just because there is or is not a consent decree doesn't mean that work stops here.

And, you know, we're done, We're good.

Even if we came into complete compliance with the consent decree, the works never done.

You know, we still have to make improvements.

We still have to do better.

There's going to be something you know, I would be remiss if I didn't say even if we became fully compliant with the consent decree, doesn't mean that no one will ever make a mistake.

You know, and that's a really valid thing that can happen.

There can be people who make mistakes.

The thing is how we deal with that and making sure that there's accountability and that the community sees accountability and they see that we can address issues as they come out.

And given that we have some family members here today, can you help of people that have been harmed by Cleveland police officers or even killed by Cleveland police officers?

Can you help give some assurance?

How are things different now?

How will we make sure that what happened to Tamir Rice won't happen to any other kid in the city of Cleveland?

Dr..

So I can say from my perspective, one of the things I've been chief now for a year.

One of the things that I have dedicated myself is and I've said publicly on many times, is compliance with the consent decree and accountability.

I am very consistent and I hold people accountable.

And that is my dedication to the community.

That's my dedication to our men and women.

I can tell you as chief, it's very lonely because I cannot have friends, I can't have relationships, because if you know any type of friendship you have with someone could be misconstrued as someone not being held accountable.

And I can tell you that, you know, I have the same expectations for each man and woman that we have here.

And it doesn't matter.

It's a patrol officer to a deputy chief.

You know, it doesn't matter what your rank is.

Does it matter who you are?

Doesn't matter who you related to.

We all have to follow the same policies and we all have to do constitutional policing.

Dr. Anderson, is there is there anything you'd like to add to that?

I think that too tired of what we are about to begin our audience.

Q In a four hour live stream and radio audience, I'm Abbey Marshall, a reporter and producer for Ideastream Public Media and MODERATOR of today's discussion.

Today, we are joined by Dr. Leigh Anderson, executive director of the Police Accountability Team at the City of Cleveland, and Dorothy Todd, chief of the Cleveland Division of Police.

And we are discussing the current state of Cleveland's consent decree and what has been accomplished, as well as challenges faced over the last ten years.

We welcome questions from everyone city club members, guests, students, as well as those joining us via livestream at City Club dot org or live radio broadcast at 89.7 Ideastream Public Media.

If you'd prefer to text your question, you can do so.

(330) 541-5794.

That's 3305415794.

And a City club staff member will try to work it into the program.

Maybe we have the first question, please.

Hi.

My name is Matthew on my resident Cleveland.

For the last three years, Cleveland has used ARPA pandemic recovery dollars on ShotSpotter, a surveillance tool that detects loud noises, has been criticized for its inaccuracy, false positives, and broader Fourth Amendment concerns.

Many cities have canceled ShotSpotter contracts since Cleveland committed to it.

Chief Todd, I know that you've defended ShotSpotter you use publicly.

Given that this consent decree originally arose from an incident that likely started with a member of law enforcement mishearing a noise as a gunshot, how do you think more broadly about squaring community concerns about surveillance in an era where the consent decree may be federally discharged?

Thank you.

Thank you.

That's a good question.

So, as you know, we talk about ShotSpotter.

ShotSpotter is a tool.

ShotSpotter isn't the end all, be all for investigations.

It's just one point that an officer can use.

They still have to have that probable cause.

They still have to conduct that investigation.

Right now, we are doing an independent evaluation of how the officers and community feel about ShotSpotter.

I can tell you we want to make sure our men and women have all the tools to do the best policing, to make sure that Cleveland is safe and the residents are safe and secure in their homes.

So that's part of that right now is ShotSpotter.

If it comes down that that's not the best tool and we move on, then we absolutely will move on from that.

And very quickly, can you give a quick rundown of what ShotSpotter is for those that aren't familiar?

So ShotSpotter is gunshot technology software.

So what that does is that it's they're placed in different areas where we were higher crime or higher gunshot areas that had a history of, you know, a lot of shots fired, a lot of, you know, citizens that were shot in that area.

And what it does is that the noise from that, it can tell what caliber weapon it is and or how many shots were fired and that vicinity.

It goes right to our dispatch center.

And then that goes to our officers to say that there was gunshots heard in this area.

A lot of times what happens is, you know, there's shots fired in a neighborhood and there are no calls for service.

So there won't be you know, someone here is it thinks someone else called or they don't you know, they just don't feel the need that they wanted to report that.

But that still has that call for service.

The officers still respond.

There have been instances when the officers hadn't received any 911 calls.

They responded to that call and they found a victim of a gunshot wound.

You know, and would that would they have found them otherwise until, you know, a later time?

There's times when that occurred and they were able to give life saving measures because of that ShotSpotter alert.

my name is Ariana.

I go to John.

Hey, I had a question for Dr. Anderson.

I wanted to ask you, what made you work with the city of Cleveland?

So I'm originally from Louis, Missouri, and I am I was going to be a police officer.

My grandfather was one of the first black police officers in the city of Saint Louis.

And he actually could not arrest white people.

He could not police white neighborhoods.

And he was able to rise through the ranks.

And so seeing that, I said I want to help with policing.

What I did find, though, was that there were a lot of problems in policing.

So what ended up happening was a lot of my family members, when it's a policing as well, blue collar family and there was a lack of accountability.

Right.

There were ways that officers were hurting each other internally.

Ways officers were hurting the public.

And so what I wanted to do was so get into a space where I could help police same and not just be one police officer responding to a call, but work on policies, work on training, give expertise.

And so I started that work in various jurisdictions DC, Chicago, Oakland and Ferguson.

And then when I saw the call for this position, I talked to then police Chief Drummond and Mayor Bibb, and I said, Are you serious?

Have a set of nine year old twins and a husband.

Are you serious?

And they said, yes.

And as a result, I am here in Cleveland on this stage.

Now.

Yes.

My name is Brenda Bickerstaff.

I am the founder of Citizens Site for Cleveland, who put together the charter amendment issue 24.

I am also the system.

Bickerstaff that was killed by police.

January 26, 2002.

And it's been 24 years this past January that he's died, he would have been 50 years old.

But it's one question I need to ask that I'm very concerned about.

And I know when the Department of Justice was here before and I've seen it here that I've seen with both of you back slides in progress.

And, you know.

Smith as a save for Cleveland, we're on top of everything that goes on.

And the issue that I have is once the consent decree leaves and this is why I'm glad we have issue 24, charter 115 five, they will revert back to their old behavior because I see it now in the there's 300 reports, 300 complaints.

That's in division of police right now that have not been turned over to officer professional standards.

So I need you to answer that question.

I absolutely I appreciate your question, Miss Bickerstaff.

And for one, I want to dispel the misinformation.

There are not 300 complaints that have not been turned over to the Office of Professional Standards.

We don't have you know, when we receive a complaint for ops, those go right to them.

We're not holding complaints.

I would ask that a conversation be held with the administrator.

Maybe to clarify what the request is.

And I can tell you that I am committed to transparency and if there are things that are questions about a policy or decision that made in the division of police, I'm always open to that.

I don't hide from difficult questions and I never have.

And I you know, I it's unfortunate that you see that there's a slide back because I see that we're making great progress.

And I think the partnership that I have with Dr. Anderson is, you know, really bringing the division forward.

So we don't hide from complaints and we don't hide from any difficult conversations.

So I don't know what misinformation is about the ops complaints, but we are not holding them here at the division of Police Chief Todd, I think what might be helpful, given that this is kind of a difficult process to navigate, there's so many different bodies that kind of have their hands in the consent decree.

If there are citizen complaints, where should they direct those to?

So when they're there's a couple different there's several different layers of accountability when it comes to policing.

If there is a complaint about an officer's behavior, conduct anything, and interaction the community has with an officer, a complaint can be filed with the Office of Professional Standards, and it's the Office of Professional Standards Ops and the Citizen Police Review Board that oversee those those type of complaints.

If there's a complaint of criminal misconduct, that's investigated by our internal affairs unit.

But, you know, it's a lot of different layers.

We also have the CPC, so there's a lot of different annexes that are overseeing everything that we do.

But if there's a complaint about any type of misconduct, it gets filed with the ops and they have their own website online.

If you go into any police district, there is forms that they can give you.

If you have a complaint about an interaction with an officer, you can go in there.

They'll give you those forms, those get forwarded and they have a tracking mechanism in place for them.

There has been a lot of discussion about the costs of the implementation of the consent decree.

While public safety metrics may be difficult to quantify, is there a way to frame the return on the investment?

To underscore the importance of continued investment in implementing the consent decree, such as For every dollar invested here is the difference that it will make.

that's I think I can start that.

That's a great question and I really like the framing.

The the difficulty is that we are dealing with humans and when it comes to accountability and it comes to the idea that we don't want to put price tags on lives, I don't want to.

And so I don't think that I can say a dollar will change, you know, a policy which will prevent this from happening or this experience from happening.

I think that we have to look at it in a more diverse context.

I understand that consent decrees are very costly and and they they really use a lot of resources within not just financial resources, but they use a lot of resources within the city.

And so I just want to note that while others are saying consent decrees are costly, I would say that the alternative to having a consent decree is also just as costly and maybe more.

Hello, my name is Kyle Williams.

I am a student at Emily's Custom High School and I want to know that.

Do you think with the progress that has been made, even with the consent degree, I mean, to a degree, if you had the choice to I mean, let's say if you were the person who were putting out a consent degree on Cleveland, would you still do it nowadays?

just a awesome question.

Thank you.

I'll be honest here.

Consent decrees are a snap in time.

Write our consent decree reflect best practices that happened ten years ago.

So if I were going to do it today, I would probably put in more provisions to make it easier to amend a consent decree to make sure that the community's wants and needs are reflected within a document.

And that is not hard to do.

And so that would be my response Next question, please.

Thank you.

My name is Terry Wang.

I'm a former community police commissioner.

I do want to correct one thing that you said or provide.

Maybe you could explain uses of force have actually gone up.

According to a CDP report from 2021 to 2023, 195 incidents to 279.

So I hope that you will either contextualize what you say about use of force decreasing or explain why it's not matching with the numbers.

My question is we've had 158 years of Cleveland police has been in existence.

We've had not one but two consent decrees.

Therefore, we've had both local and federal government oversight of our police forces.

The first part of my question is can civilian oversight that is allowed to be truly independent because in my opinion, OPS and the Community Police Commission are not independent, be do better without political interference.

And the second part is what will happen if the consent decree leads and you don't have independent civilian oversight.

And we are left with internal net mechanisms of the police to deal with accountability and a and a neutered civilian oversight system that is not acting on behalf of the community.

Thank you, So I'd like to to note that use of force just went up in the past year of 1224 6021 use of force has gone down.

And so I encourage everyone to work with ICE to look at those numbers.

And so and we also see a decrease in use of force in the city incidents.

And so we are putting forth a public data portals which we are able to to look into the data and see what's out there.

Our urban A.I., which Mayor Bishop has set aside to be able to look and provide numbers, data that the data team also nested within the division of police also provide numbers.

So statistics are and this is me coming from land statistics are very very important.

I think context is even more important.

So to that point of the question, absolutely right.

When statistics are given, they need to be contextualized.

The other thing to that that I would say is, well, I'll let you take the just so I'm going to touch real quick on the use of force.

I think when you say use of force, there's this idea in everyone's mind that, you know, there's a five hour use of force.

Policy is very, you know, it's really gets to the minor part and portion.

So I use of force could be you know there's different levels level one, two and three a level one.

An officer, you know, points his firearm.

A level one could be somebody who's being handcuffed and they say, you hurt my wrist.

Those are all reportable use of forces.

So when you say the word use of force, it doesn't mean it entailed a physical altercation with a member of the, you know, division of police and a citizen.

So that's, you know, really you want to look at when you look at those numbers, what level of use of force are we talking about?

You know, is this you know, when we looking at our level one use of force, Yes, they are a little bit higher.

We're seeing more pistol points.

We're also seeing a lot more violent crimes.

We're seeing a lot more people with firearms.

So you have to look at that balance there.

And the second portion, I believe it was about independence of the Cleveland Community Police Commission, which I wanted to note does have a table outside.

So if anyone has any questions specifically for them, there will be members that can speak to you.

But the question was about politics and independence of that commission.

So the biggest thing is, is we don't want to be involved in the politics.

You know, it's it's we want these to be working relationships.

You know, another part of my commitment was to find and build relationships with the Community Police Commission.

You know, and one of the first things I did was meet with the co-chairs when I became chief.

You know, how do we build these relationships?

How do we make sure that we have proper communication?

How do we work together to make sure our men and women have the best policies and are doing what they are supposed to be doing?

It has to be a partnership.

You look at us as law enforcement officers.

We're just, you know, people.

That's all we know.

That's all we do.

You look at seven months of training and you become a police officer.

You look at our partners, at the community police commission, you know, not all of them are police officers.

They didn't come from police backgrounds.

So it's about, you know, them educating us, educating them and finding out how to work together to make sure we have constitutional policing in the city of Cleveland.

And I wanted to note to that point, external oversight is important, but also internal oversight is important, right?

So, for example, as humans, we always look for external motivation.

What about intrinsic and internal motivation?

Right?

And so should I do something or should I not do something?

And we see that playing out within the police department.

And one of the things that I wanted to really underscore is that in us talking to the police academy, right where the last session that they have the police accountability team, the last time that I was there and I spoke with the Academy class, I said, how do you feel you're going to be scrutinized, You're under these restrictive policies, you're under federal oversight.

And there was a cadet or recruit that raised their hand and literally knocked me on my heels with her response.

The response is, this is all we know.

Constitutional policing will be what we execute.

What else can I answer for you?

And I believe her.

And at the graduation, she was given an award for being a leader.

So if this is the caliber of officers that are coming out of the academy within the city of Cleveland, I am confident that not only will there be external oversight, but there will be effective internal oversight and accountability mechanisms that will be applied.

Yes, we can take your question.

Yes, Yes.

Thank you.

And I'm glad it ended on that.

Talking about the internal and external oversight, we have an incident that happened with the Cleveland police where a woman was being chased by a man and police were responding to a separate call and that other car that was chasing her was shooting at her.

When they drove by the police, the police shot her in her car.

The report says that she died as a result of the bullet fired from the other car and his driver was charged with manslaughter.

Manslaughter, That never happens.

Why not murder?

Is it because police bullets contributed and they wish to escape culpability by avoiding the testimony of experts in a trial So the investigation is ongoing and yet the civilian is the only one charged.

So here it is a year later.

And the internal investigation of those officers is not complete.

Here it is over a year later, it's become the internal administrative investigations which should have been done is not done.

So there's no real progress in the corrective action policy in the way that you've been touting.

So my question is, how can you sit on this panel and tout that you're promoting that accountability is happening when in this incident there is no accountability that has happened in over a year and your policy says 60 days for an internal investigation to be completed at Chicago?

It seems like very good question.

And again, this is, you know, sometimes is a educational moment so that there is a bigger understanding.

The division of police does not investigate our officer involved shootings.

We do not investigate our own officer involved shootings.

Those are done by the sheriff's department.

So we are not the investigating entity for that incident that you were referring to.

It has not come back from the sheriff's department.

And so that's why when you say that, it's a very, very valid concern, you know, that you have there.

And we talk about accountability.

I know that there's one person who has been charged and pled out, and that was the female occupant in that vehicle that you're referring to.

The actual driver who was doing the shooting has not gone and been in court yet.

There was two people in there, the female occupant who was the driver of the vehicle.

She pled to manslaughter.

The guy has not gone in front of the judge yet.

But I just want to make sure that, you know, if there is a critical officer involved shooting, we are not the investigating agency for that.

And it's just for transparency to the community to let them know that, you know, they're getting an outside person that comes in to conduct that and about that investigation.

So that hasn't been completed yet.

So we can't so we can't do the administrative portion until the criminal if they have to be criminally cleared before we can conduct an internal administrative investigation.

So once that process is completed, we will conduct that investigation.

So, Chief Todd, what I'm hearing from many of our speakers and people that are here are concerns of mistrust, right.

And perception and experience play into this.

Do you both believe that the consent decree has helped with any of that mistrust?

And what can you all do better to help community members feel better and safer in Cleveland?

So just really quick, I think that this is one portion that's a good thing.

It's something good.

It's to come out and hear the concerns of the community and to also answer questions to clear up any misinformation.

And so know if there's something that people are seeing, feeling they should have the voice to be able to come to the leads of the division of police and their concerns, have productive conversations and find the best solutions.

I know there are a lot of other questions and I suspect this will not be the last time that we convene a forum like this.

I want to thank all of you for being a part of it.

And I want to thank Chief Todd and and Director Anderson as well.

And Abbey Marshall, Thank you so much.

As we mentioned at the onset, our forum has been part of our Criminal Justice series, which we present in partnership with the Char and Chuck Fowler Family Foundation, and it's also the Peter de Leon forum on local politics.

Mr. De Leon was a member of the City Club for 68 years and an attorney.

His daughter, Paulette Novak, remains active with the City Club.

And we appreciate their endowment gift and their long term support, this organization.

We'd like to extend a special welcome to students joining us from Cleveland Early College High School and M.C.

Squared STEM High School.

It's great to have you with us.

Also, a special welcome to Guess the Tables, hosted by Building Freedom Ohio of the Ohio Organizing Collaborative Black Lives Matter.

Cleveland Incorporated, the Cleveland Community Police Commission, downtown Cleveland and Reach and from the Northeast Ohio Coalition on the Homeless.

Coming up next week, on Tuesday, we'll be talking about the changes to the immigration policy in the United States.

And Friday, February 14th, we'll hear from the authors of the book The Case for Cities.

That brings us to the end of our program today.

Our forum is now adjourned For information on upcoming speakers or for podcasts of the City Club, go to cityclub.org Production and distribution of City club forums on ideastream Public Media are made possible by PNC and the United Black Fund of Greater Cleveland, Inc..